Home Defense Question

[VaRecon]

My "get up and go" piece has always been my model 66 .357, but as Flapjack said, the last thing I would intend to do is paint my living room red.
In the event you had to use your weapon a .22 simply does not have the power for a guaranteed one-shot knockdown.
Although most crooks should turn their tails after the first audible pump of a 12 gauge.
And imo, 20 or so holes in a perp seems like an uneasy explanation to first responders.

 

[RonS]

I have had too many problems over the years with .22 LR ammo to want to trust the safety of my family to one. I have, when the only gun we had was a .22 rifle, but that was way back in the 1970's when I was a young Airman and could barely afford to eat and drive to work the same day. My choice is centerfire handgun, shotgun if you have one (I presently do not), centerfire rifle, then rimfire rifle then rimfire handgun.

 

[guy22]

My "get up and go" piece has always been my model 66 .357, but as Flapjack said, the last thing I would intend to do is paint my living room red.
In the event you had to use your weapon a .22 simply does not have the power for a guaranteed one-shot knockdown.
Although most crooks should turn their tails after the first audible pump of a 12 gauge.
And imo, 20 or so holes in a perp seems like an uneasy explanation to first responders.

In the event you had to use your weapon a .22 simply does not have the power for a guaranteed one-shot knockdown.

Please tell me what type of weapon under .50 cal has a guaranteed one-shot knockdown??? I want one!!!

Below .50 cal there is no real knockdown. The force is not there. In movies you see that stuff where guys are knocked back.

I have shot a buck in the chest at ~ 10 yards with a 12 gauge slug. Running right at me. Didnt slow him down a bit as he went by me. Dropped 40 yards away.

Guaranteed is shot placement, not caliber. A shot to the brain always seems to work. A hard shot to make with any weapon except at very close range.

Have you ever seen a horse put down? I have. The Vet used a .22lr pistol right to the brain.

Shot placement is key! Not caliber.

JMHO

Guy22

 

[CrazyFingers]

Shot placement is key! Not caliber.

JMHO

So, the best self-defense weapon is a .177 pump-action air rifle that you can shoot into the criminal's eye, right? Since caliber doesn't matter.

Shot placement is important. So is using a caliber that can penetrate to a depth where vital organs are (this includes going through heavy clothing and probably ribs). Barring a lucky CNS shot, no commonly used handgun caliber can really be considered an "instant manstopper". However, in an emergency where it's dark and I'm pumped with adrenaline, my hands are shaking, and all I can hope for is a center-mass shot, I'd trust my 9mm or .45ACP over any of my .22LR any day.
If you want to trust your life to a .22 rimfire firearm, hey, that's your gamble. But I won't.

 

[redbos]

You use your pistol/revolver to fight your way back to a rifle/shotgun.

Shotgun with 00 Buck is a game changer, I dont take chance since I have a family. A pistol is a great tool to carry while on foot in the world, use real firepower when you can, like at home.......


BTW - in Ma, you have to try and "Escape" whatever that means. Horrible laws, probably why my wife are moving to WA state.....

 

[ScrapmasterFlex]

Very well put, shotgun with 00 Buck is a game changer.

 

[Skeeziks]

Very well put, shotgun with 00 Buck is a game changer.

For all that keep their shotgun in the corner of the bedroom or in the living room next to the bark-o-lounger loaded with 00 Buck....your better off loading it with smaller shot. Nothing larger than #4 Buck.
At the ranges the bad guy is most likely to be when you have to fire, the pattern will only be from 1" to maybe 4".

Despite what you read on these forums, 00 Buck wasn't designed to be used in the confines of the average size home.

 

[7.62nato]

Can you cite some state laws or actual cases? I've never heard of any laws that consider firing more than one round into an assailant manslaughter.
Generally, self-defense and castle law allow someone to fire until the threat is neutralized. Obviously you can't walk back over to a wounded and non-threatening assailant five minutes later and pump a few more rounds into him for good measure. However, as long as he continues to present a threat, I'll continue to fire.

Mozambique (Failure To Stop) Drill. Get aquainted with it, make it part of your mindset. Run it till you can do it in your sleep and then run it again and again. If the adrenaline is pumping and you happen to miss a vital, keep firing until the threat is dead.

 

[VaRecon]

In the event you had to use your weapon a .22 simply does not have the power for a guaranteed one-shot knockdown.

Please tell me what type of weapon under .50 cal has a guaranteed one-shot knockdown??? I want one!!!

Below .50 cal there is no real knockdown. The force is not there. In movies you see that stuff where guys are knocked back.

I have shot a buck in the chest at ~ 10 yards with a 12 gauge slug. Running right at me. Didnt slow him down a bit as he went by me. Dropped 40 yards away.

Guaranteed is shot placement, not caliber. A shot to the brain always seems to work. A hard shot to make with any weapon except at very close range.

Have you ever seen a horse put down? I have. The Vet used a .22lr pistol right to the brain.

Shot placement is key! Not caliber.

JMHO

Guy22

Most people's budget doesn't allow for a Desert Eagle home defense.
While I realize it's not the size of the bullet, but where it goes, I would much rather have a .357 in my hand then a .22.
Most perps aren't going to line up like livestock so it is more important to have a bit more bang when lives could depend on it.
Not to say hitting the target isn't important, but if you can't hit your mark you shouldn't pull the trigger, no matter what is coming out of the barrel.

 

[Trifle]

While I agree that a shotgun would be best, mine is an under/over that is too long for effectively moving through the house. As an alternative I keep several handguns in drawers scattered about the house. These include a S&W 686, Ruger SP 101, Walther PPK and S&W 351 PD (my wife's). Kids have left the roost and all these guns go into the safe when company is coming over. All the guns, with the exception of the PPK, are revolvers. They can sit in a drawer for years and still function if necessary. The PPK is my primary CC piece, otherwise I would replace it with a revolver for home defense.

 

[redbos]

Does not apply in MA, you actually try and have to "Escape" if someone gets in your home, nice country!

Physical security is the key. Good doors, steel door jams, Medeco locks, alarm system with motions, motion lights in front and on the sides and back of your home. Let the thief think, " Maybe they look prepared, time to move to an easy one."

After that, 12 Gauge 00 Buck is all I can do after calling 911, thats what I have been told...... Maybe a Law Enforcement officer can shed some light on this for us......

thank goodness for the castle doctrine..

 

[redbos]

I depend on a handgun when I walk the streets of my community, but as the man said, you use a pistol to fight your way back to your rifle/shotgun.

My cousin is a LT, on the regional SWAT team. They have shot people with those new H&K UMP's in .40 S&W, three shot burst models( not Full Auto). One guy made it down the frt walk with three holes in his gut, he lived but was not a threat any longer.......

In the event you had to use your weapon a .22 simply does not have the power for a guaranteed one-shot knockdown.

Please tell me what type of weapon under .50 cal has a guaranteed one-shot knockdown??? I want one!!!

Below .50 cal there is no real knockdown. The force is not there. In movies you see that stuff where guys are knocked back.

I have shot a buck in the chest at ~ 10 yards with a 12 gauge slug. Running right at me. Didnt slow him down a bit as he went by me. Dropped 40 yards away.

Guaranteed is shot placement, not caliber. A shot to the brain always seems to work. A hard shot to make with any weapon except at very close range.

Have you ever seen a horse put down? I have. The Vet used a .22lr pistol right to the brain.

Shot placement is key! Not caliber.

JMHO

Guy22

 

[gld1203]

I must respectfully call "bs" on those of you who say there is a duty to retreat in your own home, in Massachusetts, New Jersey, or any other state. Quote a statute if you can find it...you won't. Call a lawyer if you know one.

I have been a criminal defense lawyer for 30+ years. In your home, you are not required to retreat from a burglar or home invader. Period. Out in public is a different question, the statutes vary from state to state. In Alabama, for instance, you have a right to "stand your ground", same as in Texas. Other places you may have to think before you shoot.

I have read hundreds of transcripts of trials involving all types of violent crimes, including home invasions. From my experience, home invasions are not the work of a single guy; usually 2 or more thugs are coming in. (other than my neighbor, who was beaten to death with a hammer by a single burglar)The usual gun for a thug is a .380, with 9's and 40's next. Very few 22's. Thugs will blow each other away with 45's. That's a one-shot gun for sure. (in one case, the .45 "severed" the thigh bone - LEO testified that it was "quite a mess"). I digress.

The need for home defense seems to arise in an instant, without warning. You hear a crashing window or door. You're asleep, after midnight. If you had a few beers the night before, you're not sharp. Even if you didn't, you're not. You wake up, disoriented. You better have a nightstand gun. Slide the drawer open, grab the gun. You're armed. For me that would be a .38 revolver. A snub. Not too big or small. Ready to fire. (I have a 686-4 4", but a snub is next)

What you do next -- well there's no rule. Personally, I would think I'd fire a warning shot before I saw a burglar face to face, screaming GTF out. Then again, I don't know how I would react.

This business about lawsuits against the homeowner by the family of a dead or injured thug? BS flag #2 (respectfully).

 

[mn_doggie]

I must respectfully call "bs" on those of you who say there is a duty to retreat in your own home, in Massachusetts, New Jersey, or any other state. Quote a statute if you can find it...you won't. Call a lawyer if you know one.

I have been a criminal defense lawyer for 30+ years. In your home, you are not required to retreat from a burglar or home invader. Period. Out in public is a different question, the statutes vary from state to state. In Alabama, for instance, you have a right to "stand your ground", same as in Texas. Other places you may have to think before you shoot.

I have read hundreds of transcripts of trials involving all types of violent crimes, including home invasions. From my experience, home invasions are not the work of a single guy; usually 2 or more thugs are coming in. (other than my neighbor, who was beaten to death with a hammer by a single burglar)The usual gun for a thug is a .380, with 9's and 40's next. Very few 22's. Thugs will blow each other away with 45's. That's a one-shot gun for sure. (in one case, the .45 "severed" the thigh bone - LEO testified that it was "quite a mess"). I digress.

The need for home defense seems to arise in an instant, without warning. You hear a crashing window or door. You're asleep, after midnight. If you had a few beers the night before, you're not sharp. Even if you didn't, you're not. You wake up, disoriented. You better have a nightstand gun. Slide the drawer open, grab the gun. You're armed. For me that would be a .38 revolver. A snub. Not too big or small. Ready to fire. (I have a 686-4 4", but a snub is next)

What you do next -- well there's no rule. Personally, I would think I'd fire a warning shot before I saw a burglar face to face, screaming GTF out. Then again, I don't know how I would react.

This business about lawsuits against the homeowner by the family of a dead or injured thug? BS flag #2 (respectfully).

Then as an attorney you well know that there may not be a direct statute that defines the instances where you must try to retreat. Case law often determines that.

You also know that many states have passed Castle Doctrine or "Stand your Ground" laws to further define the "retreat" requirement or lack thereof.

If no one needs to retreat, then why were all those laws passed...

And you are really saying there have been no wrongful death lawsuits filed over defensive shooting in homes, etc?

 

[CrazyFingers]

Mozambique (Failure To Stop) Drill. Get aquainted with it, make it part of your mindset. Run it till you can do it in your sleep and then run it again and again. If the adrenaline is pumping and you happen to miss a vital, keep firing until the threat is dead.

I do a string of Mozambique drills every time I go to the range, and have for years.

 

[gld1203]

Then as an attorney you well know that there may not be a direct statute that defines the instances where you must try to retreat. Case law often determines that.

You also know that many states have passed Castle Doctrine or "Stand your Ground" laws to further define the "retreat" requirement or lack thereof.

If no one needs to retreat, then why were all those laws passed...

And you are really saying there have been no wrongful death lawsuits filed over defensive shooting in homes, etc?

I'm trying to understand this post. We're talking about the lack of a duty to retreat inside your home. i say there is no statute anywhere which tells anyone in this country that they have to run and hide from a burglar in their own home. "Stand your Ground" statutes apply away from home...i e., when you're gassing up your car.

Case law interprets statutory law. Criminal statutes are strictly construed in favor of the accused. In the context of this thread, we're talking about a homeowner who fires at a burglar in the house. My contention is there is no duty to retreat. If a burglar smashes a window and is coming in, you can shoot. You don't have to let him draw down first. A case decision can't impose a duty which doesn't exist by statute.

Stand your ground statutes eliminate the duty to retreat away from home. If a state doesn't have that provision, then there may be a duty to retreat but it's hinged on a reasonable belief that you can do so in complete safety. if a thug has a knife on you at the gas station, I believe you can shoot him in self-defense and you don't have to try to run away. But, there's always 2 sides to every story, and the DA's office will determine who they believe.

Filing a lawsuit is easy, anyone can do it. I have never heard of a successful lawsuit filed by the family of an injured or killed burglar, against the homeowner who shot the guy inside his own house. Insurance companies generally don't give away their own money for nothing, and that type of lawsuit would, depending on the facts, be vigorously defended. IMO.

 

[redbos]

Pretty sure in MA you have to try and "escape" your dwelling. Again, I am not an attorney, but have been told this by family members with local and State police experience as well as the issuing officer of my CCW permit.

Again, perhaps I have been mislead here, but thats the info that has been given to us in MA. Also, our permits use to say "Protection of Life and Property" That changed, to "All Lawful purposes"

Educate me, I would love to know the truth.

 

[mn_doggie]

I'm trying to understand this post. We're talking about the lack of a duty to retreat inside your home. i say there is no statute anywhere which tells anyone in this country that they have to run and hide from a burglar in their own home. "Stand your Ground" statutes apply away from home...i e., when you're gassing up your car.

Case law interprets statutory law. Criminal statutes are strictly construed in favor of the accused. In the context of this thread, we're talking about a homeowner who fires at a burglar in the house. My contention is there is no duty to retreat. If a burglar smashes a window and is coming in, you can shoot. You don't have to let him draw down first. A case decision can't impose a duty which doesn't exist by statute.

Stand your ground statutes eliminate the duty to retreat away from home. If a state doesn't have that provision, then there may be a duty to retreat but it's hinged on a reasonable belief that you can do so in complete safety. if a thug has a knife on you at the gas station, I believe you can shoot him in self-defense and you don't have to try to run away. But, there's always 2 sides to every story, and the DA's office will determine who they believe.

Filing a lawsuit is easy, anyone can do it. I have never heard of a successful lawsuit filed by the family of an injured or killed burglar, against the homeowner who shot the guy inside his own house. Insurance companies generally don't give away their own money for nothing, and that type of lawsuit would, depending on the facts, be vigorously defended. IMO.

And Castle Doctrine doesn't apply to the home? Again, if you don't have to retreat or make a reasonable effort to do so, then why are states passing those laws (in my opinion, to over ride bad case law set by judges who don't like firearms.)

There may not have ever been a successful lawsuit filed against a homeowner involved in a shooting. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There are always ambulance chasing lawyers who will go after anyone they think they can get some money from. They are perfectly willing to get their client to take an easy out of court settlement for a a small chunk of money rather than going all the way to trial. Some of the Castle Doctrine laws have been enacted to stop the frivoulous lawsuits which can easily cost tens of thousands of dollars and not be paid for by insurance. The original shooting my ave been to stop one kind of robbery, Castle laws have been enacted to stop a second kind of "legal" robbery.

All I'm saying, is that in many states, as in mine, I have to make a reasonable attempt to retreat before using deadly force. Hopefully, someday, that will change.

My first post is a direct response to your statement:

"I must respectfully call "bs" on those of you who say there is a duty to retreat in your own home, in Massachusetts, New Jersey, or any other state. Quote a statute if you can find it...you won't. Call a lawyer if you know one. "

I disagree with that satement because in some states that may not be true.

 

[gld1203]

Pretty sure in MA you have to try and "escape" your dwelling. Again, I am not an attorney, but have been told this by family members with local and State police experience as well as the issuing officer of my CCW permit.

Again, perhaps I have been mislead here, but thats the info that has been given to us in MA. Also, our permits use to say "Protection of Life and Property" That changed, to "All Lawful purposes"

Educate me, I would love to know the truth.

I found this. The last line is important.

MASSACHUSETTES GENERAL LAW

CHAPTER 278. TRIALS AND PROCEEDINGS BEFORE JUDGMENT

Chapter 278: Section 8A. Killing or injuring a person unlawfully in a dwelling; defense

Section 8A. In the prosecution of a person who is an occupant of a dwelling charged with killing or injuring one who was unlawfully in said dwelling, it shall be a defense that the occupant was in his dwelling at the time of the offense and that he acted in the reasonable belief that the person unlawfully in said dwelling was about to inflict great bodily injury or death upon said occupant or upon another person lawfully in said dwelling, and that said occupant used reasonable means to defend himself or such other person lawfully in said dwelling. There shall be no duty on said occupant to retreat from such person unlawfully in said dwelling.

 

[redbos]

I too, have to "make an effort to retreat" I would hate to have a jury or judge define what that means in MA. They hate our guns here and I have every "permit" the State issues....

Some LEO's will not give CCW permits to anyone, one town in MA even makes full time Officers have a permit that says, "Work Only - Police Officer" Other LEO's make you sue for a permit........

And Castle Doctrine doesn't apply to the home? Again, if you don't have to retreat or make a reasonable effort to do so, then why are states passing those laws (in my opinion, to over ride bad case law set by judges who don't like firearms.)

There may not have ever been a successful lawsuit filed against a homeowner involved in a shooting. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There are always ambulance chasing lawyers who will go after anyone they think they can get some money from. They are perfectly willing to get their client to take an easy out of court settlement for a a small chunk of money rather than going all the way to trial. Some of the Castle Doctrine laws have been enacted to stop the frivoulous lawsuits which can easily cost tens of thousands of dollars and not be paid for by insurance. The original shooting my ave been to stop one kind of robbery, Castle laws have been enacted to stop a second kind of "legal" robbery.

All I'm saying, is that in many states, as in mine, I have to make a reasonable attempt to retreat before using deadly force. Hopefully, someday, that will change.

My first post is a direct response to your statement:

"I must respectfully call "bs" on those of you who say there is a duty to retreat in your own home, in Massachusetts, New Jersey, or any other state. Quote a statute if you can find it...you won't. Call a lawyer if you know one. "

I disagree with that satement because in some states that may not be true.