Reloading .357s and .38 specials

[FelmarCorp]

Hi guys!
I'm new to the forum and have a couple questions regarding loads for rainier bullets. I tried looking for data on the net but couldn't really come up with a solid answer.

I just bought a S/W 686 Pro 5 and will be reloading both .357 and .38 specials. I have 125gr Rainier LeadSafe GPFN for the bullets.

I'll be using W231 powder for the .38s with SPP and 2400 for the .357s with SPMP.

So my questions-

Does the above sound okay so far ?
Also, I found that 4.0g is a good starting point for W231 in the .38s and 13.0g of 2400 in the .357s. Does that sound about right? I do like the flash and bang.

Is it okay to have SPP for the W231 and SPMP for the 2400 ? Or can I just use SPP for both ?

Thanks in advance for your help

Felipe.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Felipe,
This is from the Ranier website:

RainierBallistics
Reloading Data




We, at Rainier Ballistics, recommend using lead bullet load data when loading our bullets. There is no need for adjustment when using lead bullet load data. Our bullets are jacketed using an electroplating process and are softer than traditionally jacketed bullets; hence the recommendation to use lead bullet load data. If you only have access to traditionally jacketed load data, we recommend reducing maximum charge by 10%. A roll or taper crimp may be used with our bullets; do not over crimp.




Copyright 1993 Rainier Ballistics
All rights reserved.

There is a button at the top on the left that says: Load Data. Click on that and the above notice comes up.

So, by going to the Alliant website for 2400 data and looking into the Reloader's Guide and then to data.hodgdon.com for W231 data, you will be able to use any lead bullet data out there for the bullets you have. When you do that, what loads do you come up with?

Let us know!

Welcome to the forum too by the way! I like to make folks self sufficient if I can! Check it out!

 

[FelmarCorp]

Felipe,
This is from the Ranier website:



There is a button at the top on the left that says: Load Data. Click on that and the above notice comes up.

So, by going to the Alliant website for 2400 data and looking into the Reloader's Guide and then to data.hodgdon.com for W231 data, you will be able to use any lead bullet data out there for the bullets you have. When you do that, what loads do you come up with?

Let us know!

Welcome to the forum too by the way! I like to make folks self sufficient if I can! Check it out!

Thanks for the welcome sir!

I appreciate the info you posted...I also like to look things up on my own but was a little confused because I read so many different things on a bunch of different sites and forums.

So I went on the Alliant site and it shows 17.5g for the 2400 in the .357. Is this the max ?

On the Hodgdon site it shows 3.8g as starting load and 4.8g as max load for W231.

How about the use of different primers...am I doing the right thing by using SPMP for the .357s with 2400 ?

 

[Skip Sackett]

GREAT!

The data that the Alliant site gives is a maximum, yes. For all of thier older powders, reducing by 10% is fine. Hodgdon & Winchester, read H110/W296, not so much!

As for the using of magnum primers, there are two schools of thought when it comes to 2400. The Old Timers, Skelton, Keith and others, swear that they are not needed. Others, like myself, use them because the "numbers" on the chronograph come out better. There may not be any other factors that get better, such as accuracy or velocity BUT the ES and SD seem to be better in my guns with my loads with the lot of 2400 I have! (Enough disclaimers for ya?)

Really, primer selection is much more important with the powder type used that the cartridge loaded. On the Hodgdon site though, they use primers for the cartridge. If you "click" the "print" button, there is a .PDF that comes up with more details about the loads you are looking at. It will give barrel length as well as primers used. Good info when building a load.

I will have to check on the Alliant site how to determine what they used for their data. Can't remember right now. There is another way to find out though, land line! All of the powder companies have them and the tech support is really friendly at all of them. They seem to be willing to help us novices!

Again, welcome to the best part of this forum! hahahaha

 

[Skip Sackett]

p.s. The type of primer is stated right in the load data on the Alliant site. Right next to the barrel length.

FWIW

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I just bought a S/W 686 Pro 5 and will be reloading both .357 and .38 specials. I have 125gr Rainier LeadSafe GPFN for the bullets.

I'll be using W231 powder for the .38s with SPP and 2400 for the .357s with SPMP.

So my questions-

Does the above sound okay so far ?
Also, I found that 4.0g is a good starting point for W231 in the .38s and 13.0g of 2400 in the .357s. Does that sound about right? I do like the flash and bang.

Is it okay to have SPP for the W231 and SPMP for the 2400 ? Or can I just use SPP for both ?

Thanks in advance for your help

Felipe.

It's been my experience a SPP works better with 2400 than a SPM primer so I would use a SPP with both powders.

 

[David Sinko]

I have never used a magnum primer in any of the numerous revolver cartridges I have loaded with 2400. Chronograph velocities have always been uniform enough for me that I just don't want to deal with the extra variable. I have never loaded a magnum primer in any cartridge.

I have no experience with the 125 gr. Rainier bullet but I have loaded the 158 gr. FP hot in the .38 Special. It gave me both higher velocities and easy extraction in my "weak sister" Model 64 snub compared to both cast and jacketed bullets, well over 900 FPS. I was surprised that it gave me higher velocities than cast bullets. Accuracy was outstanding as well. If that 125 gr. bullet has a cannelure, you still need to be very careful with how you crimp. Any amount of excessive crimp will cause the case to buckle (usually right under the crimp) and can cause very tight chambering. I learned this the hard way at a match. Also, new brass can bite through the thin plating if excessive crimp is used and cause the copper plating to actually separate and you can get two nice round holes on the target for every shot fired. I also learned this the hard way at a match. You need to be very careful when using plated bullets and roll crimps.

Dave Sinko

 

[Rule3]

Thanks for the welcome sir!

I appreciate the info you posted...I also like to look things up on my own but was a little confused because I read so many different things on a bunch of different sites and forums.

So I went on the Alliant site and it shows 17.5g for the 2400 in the .357. Is this the max ?

On the Hodgdon site it shows 3.8g as starting load and 4.8g as max load for W231.

How about the use of different primers...am I doing the right thing by using SPMP for the .357s with 2400 ?

ERROR ALERT:

Please go back to the Alliant website and read where did you get 17.5 grains for a 125 PLATED bullet??? The data is for a Speer Gold Dot HP, a totally different bullet. Yes, it is the same weight but not a thin plated bullet as the Rainer. OAL will be different and if you load max you will need to crimp heavy and probably break through the plating. Plated bullets are not made for true full house magnum loads and velocity.

Alliant only lists max charges so you need to reduce to start off with. They also do not specify a magnum primer with 2400.

The Hodgdons website is much better for load data for your W 231/HP 38 (same exact powder) There you will find a good load for 125 gr lead using the W 231 and would be a better way to start off IMHO.

Rainer say to use lead data, Berrys plated says use mid range FMJ data. To make life simple I treat plated as midway jacketed. Most loads are not going to exceed the 1200 FPS limit unless you load them to the max.

The trick with plated bullets in revolvers is that most revolver dies roll crimp. If you try to get full mag loads you will have to apply a heavy roll crimp to avoid the bullets moving in the cylinders which will lock up you gun. so unless you have a taper crimp (which is used for semi autos) it is better to shoot mild target loads even though they are called magnums.

What manuals do you have??

 

[joedaddy]

I think the best solution to the OP's question would be for Rainier and Berry's to finally develop their own load data. It gets tiresome best guessing for their products.

 

[Rule3]

For Berrys Bullets in semi auto I pretty much just use FMJ data. I do not usually load max loads anyway and as mentioned most are not going to exceed 1200 FPS. I think, not proven that Berrys have a tad more plating than Rainer or so I have read.

 

[EthanG-M&P]

Hi, all.

I was hoping to get in on this topic, and get some advice. I purchased some plated 125gr Berrys bullets to load some .38 Specials, and hopefully, some .357 MAGNUMS.

I have been loading the .38's with:

Actual Berrys info: 38/357 Cal (.357) 125gr FP - SPECIAL
38 / 357 plated pistol bullets

Load Info: 125 grain JHP or JSP (Jacketed Hollow or Soft Point)
Reloading The .38 Special Page

Alliant Powder - Bulls Eye Smokeless Pistol Powder
4.4gr

I know this is for a FMJ, but I had a tough time finding load data else where, and on certain forums, users had loaded with this recipe without issue. I have fired it without issue, but it does seem a little hot. Accuracy is not bad.

Now, for the new .357 MAGNUM load which I am anticipating

I have not yet loaded any .357 MAGNUMS but plan to do so with:

Actual Berrys info: 38/357 Cal (.357) 125gr FP
38 / 357 plated pistol bullets

Load Info: 125 GR. CAST LRNFP
Reloading The .357

Hodgdon Clays powder
MIN: 3.5gr - 984 fps
MAX: 5.3gr - 1260 fps

(I am not sure where to start here, these powder measurements seem low in contrast to other bullets I've loaded with this powder, mainly 9mm. Would 5grs be a respectful starting weight, or should I drop that down to 4.5grs?)

I was told that using lead data on these plated bullets would be fine. I believe that the 'LRNFP' stands for: Lead Round Nose Flat Point, no?

My main concern is the crimp on the 357 MAGNUMS.
In all images I've come across for 357 bullets, the lead/cast/plated bullet has an indentation, which is used to crimp the casing's head into, as such:

Yet, the bullet I have to load with, has no such indentations:

I would think that I could just sink the bullet a little deeper into the casing, and do a small roll crimp (I believe that is what the crimp is called - I am using Hornady Dies), no?

I would predict that the round would look something like this, but with the bullet a little farther down, and a 'roll' over the section of the bullet where it just starts to tapper:

I appreciate all insight & critisim into this, for I am still learning - I have only been loading for about 6 months. So far, I have mainly been doing 9mm's, .38 Specials, and 45 ACP, but would like to step it up a notch with these MAGNUMS

Thanks,
--Ethan

 

[David LaPell]

What I recommend is that you go out and get a couple of get reloading manuals, I prefer Lyman's and have two or three of theirs because eventually you are going to want to try out different bullets. .357 is my favorite to load next to the .38 Special and I have alot of loading data, and alot of it I read through before I even started. It's best to stay away from the max loadings, I found in almost every .357 I used that the groups were the worst. The flash and bang is fine, but I want my groups to be as small as possible and if that means a few less fps than so be it.

 

[EthanG-M&P]

Thank you, David. I have an old Lyman's, from the 70's, that I need to update.

I will find a balance between the min/max loads.

 

[Maximumbob54]

I will add my two cents worth to this and say that I won’t download a plated bullet the same way I will a light load with a properly lubed cast lead bullet. If you load light target wadcutters or anything else the thought I have is that the lubed lead is going to go down the barrel with more ease in front of a light load than a swaged copper plated bullet has any hope of doing. I may be wrong, but it at least makes me feel like I have much less of a chance of sticking a bullet in a barrel. And I do know that a lubed cast bullet is WAY easier to push free than a jacketed bullet. But that may have more to do with the thicker than plated copper jacket dealing with barrel threading. Anyways, that was my two cents. Spend it well.

 

[snowman]

Ethan,

Re: seating and crimping a bullet without a cannelure(the 'indentation' you're speaking of):

I'm not an expert, but I have been loading for eight years or so; and I just want to make sure that you're aware that a pressure increase occurs as you seat a bullet more deeply. If I understand you correctly, you're thinking of doing that with your magnum load in order to obtain an acceptable crimp on the Berry bullet. I don't believe I would try that, especially with the relatively fast-burning powder you're going to use. I would think you would get into hazardous-pressure-territory fairly quickly.

I would be mistaken here if the dimension between the base and what I believe is called the "ogive"(point at which the side of the bullet angles inward toward the tip) is the same or nearly the same as the dimension between the base and the cannelure of a standard jacketed bullet. In that case the seating depth of the Berry bullet you're proposing and bullets with a cannelure would be the same, and thus not an issue.

If the seating depth you're thinking of using is too great for safe pressures, then a taper crimp is the best solution. I don't know what kind of crimp die you're using; I use a Lee Factory Crimp Die, which, as I recall, can apply a taper crimp as well as a roll crimp(I use only bullets with a cannelure and therefore apply a roll crimp with it.).

But I'm certainly not infallible; I'm sure some of the more experienced loaders will stop by and correct me if need be(a good possibility).

Best wishes and stay safe,
Andy

 

[EthanG-M&P]

Max, it is true that a little more powder is needed for cast bullets, but not that much more compared to pure lead, which is why I usually meet in the middle of the min/max requirements.


Andy, my dad used to load some .357's, and still had a few lead bullets laying around, as well as a few loaded bullets. The lead bullets are significantly taller and seated farther down than the cast bullet I would like to use. The pressure you speak of is the trapping of air as the bullet is squeezed into the casing during bullet seating? Although I don't know the powder that my dad was using, I believe the depth won't e an issue.

As for the crimp, the dies I am using provide a "roll crimp," which I believe just squeezes the lip of the casing around the bullet's 'ogive" a bit (which is also how his old reloads looked). I would feel better if the bullets had a cannelure, but they are without. Therefore, it has been recommended that I use a tapper crimp, but I would need to get another die for that.

 

[snowman]

Hi, Ethan.

'Pressure' in reloading parlance refers to the pressure on the wall of the chamber generated by the rapidly expanding gasses of the powder as it burns. In the reloading data, it is listed either in "cup"(copper units of pressure), or in "psi"(lbs. per square inch). For each load listed there will be a number, usually in tens of thousands, telling the chamber pressure generated by that particular load.

This pressure increases or decreases by means of a variety of factors, one of which is the seating depth of the bullet. The more deeply the bullet is seated, the less space is available in the case for the powder to expand, and the more friction is created by the increased amount of bullet surface against the wall of the case. This increases the chamber pressure.

Chamber pressure is the critical issue in reloading safety. It must be kept within certain levels to avoid damaging the gun and injuring the shooter.

Didn't intend to wax eloquent; pardon me. Hope this is of some help to you.

Regards,
Andy

 

[EthanG-M&P]

I just want to make sure that you're aware that a pressure increase occurs as you seat a bullet more deeply.

Best wishes and stay safe,
Andy

By reading that, I was under the assumption that you were concerned that I would be pushing the bullet down far enough to contact the powder, thus creating a "compressed load," and run the risk of combustion while seating the bullet with the die.

I hadn't suspected that a bullet seated farther down would effect the pressures within the casing during firing (I always assumed it was just powder amount & bullet weight), but your mention of friction on the bullet and casing walls is creditable, and I will take that into account.

None the less, the bullet in question is not very tall, and won't be seated very far. I believe it won't significantly increase the internal pressures. Still, I will start with a lighter load and work my way up.

Thanks for the info, and keep it coming!

 

[nicky4968]

For any bullet weight, you have a minimum and a maximum OAL (overall length). If you seat your plated bullet so far into the case you are below the minimum OAL, you're looking for more trouble than you need. KABOOMs are spectacular, and best viewed over the Internet. (Air is the best buffer for explosions).
Your plated bullet should be loaded with lead loads, not jacketed. This is very plainly stated on the manufacturers' sites.
I recommend a tapered crimp. Too heavy a roll crimp will break through the plating, and defeat its purpose (lubrication and prevention of leading).
I would not use a plated bullet to get top-end magnum performance. That is an entirely different ball game. It is common for neophytes to immediately jump into high-pressure/high-velocity rounds. Take our word for it, it's just not worth it.
If the .357 isn't big enough, go to the .44 Magnum. Etc. Etc.
If none of those satisfy your needs, go to a .30-06.

 

[EthanG-M&P]

I recently read an article in American Rifleman about reloading the 38 and 357, in which they pictured a 357 with a roll crimp over the bullet's ogive. Yet, the bullet in question was a wad cutter with a very pronounced ogive

I will keep the Min/Max OAL in mind. I don't think these bullets are going to work out; they don't have the cannelure or pronounced ogive, needed for a decent roll crimp. Without that, they OAL will be off, or the platting will be penetrated.

=(

I will see about getting some more lead some place.

Thanks for the help.