The most stunning revolver I own (Model of 1917 military)

[SnubNose]

Hello friends,

In my quest to build my S&W collection a gentleman offered me this fine piece that I only know a little about. From my reading here I've gathered that this .45 Hand Ejector Model of 1917 seems to be a military version (crest on sideplate) but that's about all I know.

The butt is marked US ARMY MODEL 1917, serial number 102165. The left barrel is marked SMITH & WESSON, the right S&W DA 45. The grips unfortunately do not number to the gun and I don't believe are period correct, but as this is a fairly late serial number I could be mistaken. There is a flaming ordnance bomb on the left of the frame directly below the rear sight, and at the rear of the trigger guard what looks to be a perched bird with some numerals beneath it. The first one has been slightly obliterated presumably from the frame being polished but the last one is a 6. On the right there is another marking below the cylinder which I cannot make out, and above it is a tiny stamping that reads NOT ENGLISH MADE (or MAKE?). Pretty neat.

The finish on this gun is nothing short of stunning. I can nary find a scratch or blemish larger than a flea. I'm almost loathe to touch it lest my greasy mitts deposit some more grease on the mirror finish. Which of course, it being a military arm, leads me to believe it was refinished at one point. The bluing is quite dark but very uniform and if there is any evidence of it having been reblued, I cannot find it. Is this possibly the original finish?

 

[2238945]

It kinda looks like its been reblued to me, the S&W symbol looks washed out at the edges. It could the camera though

 

[DCWilson]

Excellent 1917. I agree it has probably been refinished, but the job was done by someone who pretty much knew what he was doing.

Most 1917s stayed in American hands during WWI, but a few were reissued to our British cousins during WWII. This is probably one of those, as the NOT ENGLISH MAKE stamp is found on American-made revolvers (some, not all) that saw service in England.

You are correct about the stocks. The ones on the gun now are postwar diamond magnas that probably date to the 1950s. But don't be in a hurry to get rid of them as the 1917 can be a little painful to shoot with the original service stocks. The magna stocks have a little more surface to them to spread recoil into the hand. The original stocks would be plain uncheckered walnut with round tops that fit the frame cut outs exactly. Magnas ride up over the frame and sideplate to a considerable degree.

Again, nice gun. That's a pretty one.

 

[SnubNose]

Thanks! With regards to the crest it's not washed out on the gun, the camera just makes it out that way. The sharpness of the markings leads me to believe it actually IS the original finish, especially the NOT BRITISH MAKE stamp which is very fine (again, the pic doesn't do it justice). Is there anything I can look for as evidence of a reblue?

 

[DCWilson]

Thanks! With regards to the crest it's not washed out on the gun, the camera just makes it out that way. Is there anything I can look for as evidence of a reblue?

The most telling thing is that the finish is just too nice. The original guns had serviceable dark finishes, but nothing as highly polished and glossy as you see on your gun. Also, I think the guns reissued to Britain may have had phosphate finishes applied (Parkerizing/Black Magic). Those finishes get scratched pretty easy, and after wartime service this gun would have been ripe for a facelift.

Here's a diagnostic step that is pretty reliabe. Look at the front end of the ejector rod. There is a beveled zone at 45 degrees to the face of the rod where the hole for the lockng pin is. In a factory original gun, that bevel is always "in the white" -- unblued. If that bevel is blued, it is evidence of a refinish. But don't over interpret this. An unblued bevel cannot be taken to mean the gun has NOT been refinished. This argument only runs one way for one condition.

 

[SnubNose]

Yep, the bevel is indeed blued. Oh well, looks like it's less of a collector than I expected it might be. I'll be sure to give it some good range time without worrying about ruining the finish. I would have to agree though that whoever did this reblue knew exactly what they were doing; the work is impeccable.

In addition to the gun I got a period leather holster (ostensibly a repro) and a Tyler T-grip. Overall I'm happy with the purchase as these are fairly uncommon around here and it's a mighty fine example, rebluing notwithstanding.

Any guess on the date of manufacture?

 

[DCWilson]

1918. Production of the 1917 began late in that year and then continued through the next year, when WWI ended. The company produced about 150,000 units during the war and yours is about two-thirds of the way through that production run.

 

[SnubNose]

Wow! I certainly wouldn't have guessed it quite that elderly, I figured the production run was much longer. I hope I look as good when I'm 94!

Thank you very much for all the info.

 

[Sprefix]

Ugly, nasty, and horrible!! Will you sell it???

 

[M2MikeGolf]

Snubnose,
I think that is a reblue also. If I thought I could get a reblue of that quality on my 1917, I'd jump on it in a second, collector value be damned. DC is right, those grips will be more comfortable, and they are a great match to that reblue. I wouldn't be dissappointed with that revolver even if the collector value is lowered a little, it's an awesome looking 1917. For a second, I thought it was a new classic model sans IL!

DC, I'm wondering. Did they stamp the S&W emblem on the sideplate on issue 1917s? I thought they only did that on the commercial models, and it was on the left side of the frame. I'm really liking this 1917 that snubnose has, would love one just like it.

Regards,
Raleigh

 

[s&wchad]

Very interesting gun - It's beautiful!

There’s a lot of history to it; I’ll tell you what I think I know. It was made for use in WWI because of a shortage of 1911’s and was later shipped to the British to be used in WWII. The eagle head/numbers were the acceptance marks of US ordinance inspectors stationed at the factory and applied during production. The number was generally prefaced with an “S”. The government took over control of S&W during WWI to increase production and the guns don't have the same quality finish as commercial variations. Yours is too nice!

“Not English Make” was required on guns that were sold by the British on the commercial market before 1955. The stamp was done over the existing finish, but the mark on your gun seems under the finish. They also proofed the guns and stamped them in various locations, including between the cylinder stop notches, on the right side bottom front of the frame and on the side of the barrel. It looks like your gun has evidence of some of those marks and you can determine if it was proofed in Birmingham or in London if you can make any of them out. The Brits sold a lot of guns after WWII and many were re-imported into the US.

I believe it was refinished sometime after WWII and S&W may have done it. As Raleigh mentioned, the trademark stamp was not placed on military M1917 revolvers. I’d pull the left stock and check for a date code.

I’ve included some photos of a later equally well traveled M1917. You may find the markings interesting.

 

[CJS57]

The large S&W logo on the right sideplate has cratered edges, so it was stamped over the blue. So that means it was refinished at S&W.

 

[DCWilson]

DC, I'm wondering. Did they stamp the S&W emblem on the sideplate on issue 1917s? I thought they only did that on the commercial models, and it was on the left side of the frame. I'm really liking this 1917 that snubnose has, would love one just like it.

Duh, I feel like an idiot. I looked right past the presence of the logo. You are correct. The military production had no logos, and the postwar commercial models of this era had a small logo on he left side.

The large S&W logo on the right sideplate has cratered edges, so it was stamped over the blue. So that means it was refinished at S&W.

My eyes can't see that detail this morning, but who else would have had a S&W rollmark?

Definitely a special gun with a lot of history and some excellent handling during return visit(s) to the factory.

 

[handejector]

The logo is not cratered.
It was applied after the gun was polished for the reblue at the factory. It has "raised" edges.

The gun is a factory reblue. It may or may not be marked under the grips, but probably is in some manner.

Roosevelt ordered 20,000 Mod 1917's be sold to Britain in June, 1940, after the fall of France. Everyone feared invasion was imminent.

 

[SnubNose]

Sounds like this is a perfect candidate for my first letter to Mr. Jinks!

On another note, is modern .45 ACP ball ammo safe to fire in this gun? I presume so as the load hasn't changed significantly since its inception but you never know, some guns of this era seem to have a mixed reputation for what they'll safely fire.

 

[JSR III]

Very nice 1917 indeed. Concerning the finish, as others have stated, the NOT ENGLISH MADE stamping was put on after the original finish was applied at the factory. That being the case, the bottom of the stamping would be through the blue finish and appear white. Since that is not the case with your revolver, that is strong evidence that the gun was refinished after it left English service. A very nice piece of history.

 

[feralmerril]

Look at the grip frame and see if its got a star and date that would indicate that it was sent back to the factory for reblue. I have had 4 of em and still have one. Years back I was in a terrible cycle accident. I was single and my best friend and wife took me in to recouperate. I gave my buddy a nice one. Later we were deer hunting and met a friend by chance in camp. Bill showed him the gun, pulled it out of a old amway case and we were all shocked to see it kind of entirely lightly rusted! Must have been from some samples that had been in the case. Our friend had a ffl and sent it to smith for a reblue. I belive in those days around 1970, the reblue was like $16s. It came back with the finest bright blue I have ever seen! I never seen a brighter blue on any new smith! At least in THAT case, I belive in reblueing a gun.

 

[44 special Dave]

Isn't S&W DA 45 typically on the left side of the barrel on military 1917s and Brazilian's?

I just turned another year older and the brain is getting?.........

Dave

 

[devildog81mm]

Isn't S&W DA 45 typically on the left side of the barrel on military 1917s and Brazilian's?

Dave

one brazilian example is yes, both S&W DA 45 is on the left side

 

[Jack Flash]

It is a stunning revolver. I sure would be proud to own it.