Editor asks: 9mm ammo for home protection

[Sebago Son]

Are we clear now?

I continue to invite the good-natured and indeed helpful responses of the majority here.

I once shot a shark in the head with a Gold Dot... does that help?

PS: The shark died without any further agression... I have photos, measurements and the recoved slug if you'd like it for your article....

PPS: If you think that this is a "Public Forum" just go ahead and P.O. the Big Silver Griller ...

 

[NKJ nut]

I once shot a shark in the head with a Gold Dot... does that help?

PS: The shark died without any further agression... I have photos, measurements and the recoved slug if you'd like it for your article....

PPS: If you think that this is a "Public Forum" just go ahead and P.O. the Big Silver Griller ...

Yes the Big Griller packs a punch. In fact his Stopping Power is legendary.

 

[martywinston]

Thanks Marty. Could you please be so kind as to tell us what publications you write for? Otherwise I am going to knock myself out looking through every gun-zine in the rack to see if you have an article in it. Magazines are so expensive these days.

I sent you a private message - send me your e-mail address and I'll send you a few recent back issues of the Newstips Bulletin, the only place I've written for during the past 30 years.

 

[martywinston]

Discussions on bullet designs and such are interesting. Though, I am reminded of this information which shows little difference among most all calibers used in handguns. An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

Thanks - an interesting read.

Also interesting to find a Chattanooga Buckeye.

A lot of that data is tactical, and I regard the requirements for tactical weapons and ammunition as being different from either home protection or personal protection.

I believe stopping the bad guy is a first priority they all have in common, but tactical shots may need to penetrate into vehicles or through walls whereas in home protection it would be better/safer to not penetrate walls (with personal protection somewhere in between, especially in the case of a carjacking).

I am not convinced that any arbitrary penetration - like the oft-cited 15" - is a watershed as to whether or not a shot has stopping power. Certainly there needs to be enough momentum to penetrate both a forearm and a secondary bone (like a rib or a skull) and plow its way through several inches of wet meat and I'm not sure there is any direct spec that can reflect that.

One of my initial concerns is the armoring effects of clothing layers; if you don't get through that, you may as well just try spanking the bad guy.

Still, it's an interesting read and I thank you for bringing it to my attention.

 

[martywinston]

First, I'd suggest you heed the advice previously stated, and review the data presented by Dr Gary K Roberts (online handle DocGKR) on M4Carbine.net

Next I suggest you read the International Wounds Ballistics Association papers made available on FirearmsTactical.com - Home. In specfic, I reccomend the timeless terminal ballistics paper written by SA Urey Patrick entitled "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness".

A book you may be interested in is by Dr Duncan MacPherson, Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics & the Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma.


Dont waste your time with Ayoob, Marshall, Sanow, or Courtney

Thanks - some of that was already part of my research - I've just read more and I've tagged a few for reading later.

 

[martywinston]

If you dont mind me asking, what publication are you writing? Who is your editor? I ask because I have some friends that a writers for some firearms magazines.

I am writing for the Newstips Bulletin - and I am its editor.

It's been about 35 years since I wrote for magazines - and most of those had words like science, mechanics, electronics or robotics in their titles.

My best to your friends - the Newstips Bulletin has been a weekly publication for the past 30 years and in all of that time all of its readers have all been journalists (writers, reporters, authors, reviewers, editors, producers, analysts, etc.) - so we may be more than colleagues.

 

[martywinston]

I will forever be partial to the Hydra Shock. If I am ever in that position again where I am depending on a bullet, I want it to have as much hit power as it possibly can. And a 9mm is not likely to go too far, but it will do it's job cutting thru most barriers for you.

That is a gem of useful, relevant information and I thank you for it.

 

[retarmyaviator]

Hi Marty. i am writing a book on internet etiquette. Do you mind if I include the text of the above post in my book? With proper attribution of course.

I've got a chapter that it would fit right in.

I know a chapter or two that text could fit in too, neither of which would cast the comments or the writer in a positive light.

 

[BSA]

Marty,

As a engineer you know for any results to be accepted as valid it must be able to be replicated in the laboratory. The sciencific method calls for eliminating all of the varibles and then introducing them one at a time to see what effect it has.

In the study you are conducting it is impossible to control the varibles. Futhermore you lack a test media (living humans). Also your use of Interent comments makes it impossible to judge the relibility of your sources as well as talking to a few LEO's.

The most serious attempt to measure handgun stopping power was Evan and Marshall.

p.s. Spending some trigger time testing various rounds in different test media might upset the information you have read and heard about.

 

[elm_creek_smith]

Besides bullet performance, ammunition needs to be examined in the light of 'How does it function in your firearm?' I was given some Federal 147 grain Hydrashok 9mm +P ammunition that absolutely failed to function in my daughter's 9mm pistol. I gave the ammo to my brother in whose KelTec 2000 9mm carbine it worked wonderfully. My daughter's 9mm is currently loaded with Winchester standard pressure 115 grain Silvertips which have proven to be the most accurate in her pistol.

Me, I'm a .38 Special kinda guy.

ECS

 

[martywinston]

Marty,

As a engineer you know for any results to be accepted as valid it must be able to be replicated in the laboratory. The sciencific method calls for eliminating all of the varibles and then introducing them one at a time to see what effect it has.

In the study you are conducting it is impossible to control the varibles. Futhermore you lack a test media (living humans). Also your use of Interent comments makes it impossible to judge the relibility of your sources as well as talking to a few LEO's.

The most serious attempt to measure handgun stopping power was Evan and Marshall.

p.s. Spending some trigger time testing various rounds in different test media might upset the information you have read and heard about.

Your message reflects presumptions about my methods; I have neither described nor proscribed my methods.

Nor am I doing so now.

But I am pleased to see that you understand scientific methodology, and that you understand some of engineering analysis.

I suggest that you also consider how market factors, human factors and media interests fold into the mix.

Reminder:

I am asking for individuals to nominate the ammo they would consider a top choice in a home protection or personal protection context. Personal experiences, war stories and anecdotal evidence are perfectly at home in this element of my research - don't hesitate to just share what you believe in without worrying too much about the ballistics or physiology of it.

 

[team sidewinder]

I use Hornady Critical Defense in the winter due to the fact that where I live most people are wearing heavy clothing and the Hornady CD has a polymer tip to keep from getting the HP clogged up from the heavy clothing material, thus better bullet expansion. If a HP round plugs with heavy clothing material it is not much better than a full metal jacketed round with very little bullet expansion.

In the summer in the home and outdoors I carry Winchester 124gr bonded PDX1 ammo.

I do have a S&W 629 44mag but would never even consider it for home defense. Too much recoil, too much muzzle flash, too much bullet penetration. I have more confidence in my 9mm than my 44 as far as HD goes.

 

[martywinston]

I use Hornady Critical Defense in the winter due to the fact that where I live most people are wearing heavy clothing and the Hornady CD has a polymer tip to keep from getting the HP clogged up from the heavy clothing material, thus better bullet expansion. If a HP round plugs with heavy clothing material it is not much better than a full metal jacketed round with very little bullet expansion.

In the summer in the home and outdoors I carry Winchester 124gr bonded PDX1 ammo.

Thanks - that's consistent with my other research into Critical Defense - it was amusing to see it being criticized for doing what it says - but that may be part of why Hornady just launched Critical Duty.

 

[team sidewinder]

Thanks - that's consistent with my other research into Critical Defense - it was amusing to see it being criticized for doing what it says - but that may be part of why Hornady just launched Critical Duty.

I will have to check out the Hornady Critical Duty ammo.

Guess I should have added that IMHO the 9mm is as good as any cartridge and better than most for home defense as I don't worry too much about bullets exiting my residence and into a neighbors should the need arise. I also feel the controlable 9mm is sufficent to cause most bad guys to cease whatever they are doing in my/your home
Thanks

 

[StatesRightist]

Marty,

Since you are defending Hornady Critical Defense, please cite the evidence you have that shows it is effective. It has failed every unbiased Gel test I've seen on it. I would like to review my thoughts on it if you have concrete data that shows otherwise. Thanks.

 

[martywinston]

Marty,

Since you are defending Hornady Critical Defense, please cite the evidence you have that shows it is effective. It has failed every unbiased Gel test I've seen on it. I would like to review my thoughts on it if you have concrete data that shows otherwise. Thanks.

Am I defending it?

Hornady claims that Critical Duty will penetrate barriers like windshield glass but that Critical Defense is intended to only penetrate barriers like clothing - and I'm paraphrasing there.

But let's take one expectation off the hook right now.

When I publish my results, this is not where I'll publish them.

My planned ammunition tests have not yet begun.

And just so you know, I am not that easily goaded.

 

[StatesRightist]

Marty,

Since you are defending Hornady Critical Defense, please cite the evidence you have that shows it is effective. It has failed every unbiased Gel test I've seen on it. I would like to review my thoughts on it if you have concrete data that shows otherwise. Thanks.

Here is a link showing Hornady CD--it is .38 though a complete failure through denim, compared to two rounds that actually work
Hornady critical defense ammo - yea or nay? - M4Carbine.net Forums

This one shows good penetration, but miserable expansion.

GoldenLoki.com

Here is another showing miserable expansion.

Ballistics Gel Hollow Points Part 10 Two More Ftx Critical Defense Rounds

I cannot comprehend supporting this ammo based on the tests I have seen.

It also fails if you value the heavier bullets school of thought. The obvious exception to this school being the all copper rounds. I'm not sure I buy the heavier bullet concept, but many do. Doc Robert's clearly stated the only 115 grain round he's ever tested that worked well was the Barnes Copper Round.

 

[StatesRightist]

"Goaded", if you are perceiving that I am attempting to annoy you, your perceptions are misplaced. You asked for thoughts, I'm giving them to you and at the same time asking you if you have information to the contrary. That is about the extent of what I was attempting, dialogue.

Thanks.

 

[martywinston]

"Goaded", if you are perceiving that I am attempting to annoy you, your perceptions are misplaced. You asked for thoughts, I'm giving them to you and at the same time asking you if you have information to the contrary. That is about the extent of what I was attempting, dialogue.

Thanks.

I am only perceiving that you are asking me to provide test results and I'm not sure that I've made it clear that I haven't yet performed any tests - as I said up top, this thread is my search for the best candidates for testing.

I also thought that perhaps the mischaracterization of what I passed along as some sort of endorsement might have been there to get a rise out of me - but if not, I apologize for jumping to the wrong conclusion.

It's easy to perceive a lot of wry wit behind many of the postings here but being just text, it's sometimes hard to perceive the tone we might hear in a spoken metier.

 

[StatesRightist]

Agreed, I do not know how many times wrongly perceived "tone" causes problems through email ect, but it's substantial. Good luck with your efforts!