+P 38 Special Nonsense Regarding Model 10

[M2MikeGolf]

Thought this might be of interest, in Germany a firearm must have a proof house stamp on any firearm that is used here. In order to be proofed, the firearm must meet the CIP proof standards, which is firing a 25% overpressure round through it; for a Model 10 that would be two rounds for each cylinder.

And by the way, there are lots of Model 10s in Germany.

 

[David LaPell]

Now THAT is interesting Roaddog28...pre-1972 "standard" velocity ammo was same pressure as current "+P" ammo? Seems somewhat analagous to the old early .357 Mag ammo supposed much hotter than later. Or is it just that advances in propellant technologies allowed the standard velocity laods to operate a lower pressure?

The original .357 mag ammo was 1,500 fps plus with a 158 grain bullet, which is alot hotter than the stuff they put out now with a 158 grain JSP unless its something like Corbon or Buffalo Bore. Alot of the earlier .38 Special is much better than what's coming out now.

 

[Texas Star]

Those who claim that today's Plus P and standard .38 ammo is weaker than was once the case forget that pressures are now measured differently, and that now, four-inch vent test barrels are used, to represent the barrel/cyinder gap in a real revolver. Prior to that, six-inch test barrels with no vent were employed. That accounts for the lower velocity in modern .38 ammo.

I saw chrono tests on ammo in the old days, and what a revolver actually delivered was much less than the advertised 860 FPS.

And WHICH PLus P matters. The USAF had to rebuild its .38 revolvers, some several times, after going to high velocity ammo. That was a big reason why they pressed to adopt a 9mm auto.

Even with J-frames warrantied for PlusP, I use it in moderation for defense and occasional familiarity firing. You just don't need to beat your gun up with hotter loads unless you're going to need the added power to shoot animate targets that might require some added punch to put down.

 

[Art Doc]

TS and I keep going around on this. If ones looks at the piece I linked in an earlier post I have test results from actual shooting of a 4" revolver with older ammo. The real world difference is not as much as some think. But anyone who absolutely refuses to believe factory ammo has been loaded down is free to believe that. My research, observations and experience tell me otherwise.

TS keeps mentioning those AF guns breaking but I don't know anything about the guns, the circumstances or the ammo used. Was it something special for the military? Off the shelf ammo like in the stores? Frankly I can't believe ANY factory ammo would be so destructive.

As for the broken M15s being the reason for switching to the M9, again he is saying things that I have never heard from any other source. It was my understanding that the switch was made to align with NATO with the 9mm caliber and to consolidate all services with one gun for logistics sake.

 

[ladder13]

i heard only the ctg marked guns are safe w/plus p.

 

[OFT II]

My limited experience with 38 special military loads gave me the impression that they were a little wimpy compared to the commercial loads of the time. I believe the military ammo was loaded with 130 grain FMJ while the commercial stuff was mostly 158 grain round nose lead.

 

[Stu Honea]

SaxonPig,the link is a excellant write up and I will have to concur with your conclusions. I shot many,many,of those loads through the sixties and seventies,and when the Super Vel became available we used plenty of that.Plenty.
There were eight of us on my department that took training seriously even then(the 70's were a tumultuous time in LE across the country.) We even practiced with hotter duty loads,even moving and shooting in those days,and lots of point shooting. We never had any issues at all in any 38's or 357 magnums with any loads we used,and we shot a lot of what we considered hot in those days,while others were simply qualifying on a PPC course semi annually with wadcutters.
The eight of us eventually went over to the Mod.39-2 autos,purchased on a department letterhead for $89.00 each.
We ran the 90 gr. Super Vels in those too,even for training purposes.Spent a lot of our own money on ammo.
Again,no adverse effects whatsoever.Not many HP loads for 9mm were available then.

I also believe,as you eloquently stated, that both gun and ammo companies today are running scared in a known litigious society and that is the catalyst for many fears of +P ammo currently.
Like yourself,I can tell that many of today's +P factory loads are not the same as some of the stuff that we used on a regular basis in those formative years of our police careers.
Thanks for that link,I had not seen it before. Very interesting.

 

[roaddog28]

I don't think the +P issue will ever go away. As long as there is a ammo company putting +P on a box of 38 specials or a gun company changing their stand on what revolvers to use 38 +P ammo in then this subject will not go away.
Example: S&W of today states to only use standard 38 special ammo in older than 1958 38 special K frames. This would mean a 158 gr round running a 735 fps.
S&W in the 1940s stated to use a standard pressure round. In those years a standard 158 gr round was running in the 850 to 900 fps. Talk about back peddling.
Unfornately, between the ammo companies and guns makers they have put the fear of god in some people that if they use a box of todays "+P" factory ammo in their model 10 or M&P pre 10 that it will either blow up the revolver or ruin it. I call this scare tactics.
Regards,
Howard

 

[336A]

Hi Fox Creek,
Did you read the link I enclosed. The standard pressure 38 special back before 1972 was running at 850 to 900 fps. This round is still below 38 special SAAMI pressures. The SAAMI standard 21500 psi for 38 special. The pressure for the round above is in 18000 range. Todays standard pressure is running at 730 fps for the 158 gr LRN.
Most "+P" rounds today are running 900 fps to 925 fps. Of course there are exceptions but +P now is more of a marketing tool by ammo makers I believe ammo companies downgraded the standard pressure to guard against a consumer shooting the old round in a wornout revolver and having issues.
The original poster on the other forums was talking about a model 10 heavy barrel made in 1971. I believe he got some poor advice.
I am using +P 38s in a`M&P 4 inch made in 1954. No issues. I use for SD Remingtons LSWCHP 158 gr +P. I shoot a box every other month.
Regards.
Howard

I agree with roaddog and others that feel .38 SPL has been watered down over the years. Here is a actual chronograph test of early vintage ammo that confirms that belief for me at least, read post #5
Original .38 Special black powder round? - Shooters Forum

 

[growr]

Am I the only one that is VERY weary of this entire topic? Not to mention all of the BS that goes with it........
Randy

 

[blujax01]

Am I the only one that is VERY weary of this entire topic? Not to mention all of the BS that goes with it........
Randy

Nah, it's like reruns of my favorite NCIS episodes.

You know it will end with someone getting slapped up side the head but it's still fun!

 

[squidsix]

Sticky would really help. EVERY week we get a "I just got a .38 SPL CTG" thread asking us what it is, and EVERY week we get a "Can I shoot +P in my model 10?".
There's nothing wrong with asking questions, of course, but the sticky would be so nice.

 

[Dave T]

Back in the early to mid 1970s, when I first got into practical pistol competition there were no classes. Everyone shot against everyone else. The one revolver shooter who threatened the auto pistols was a police officer from a neighboring town. He had a M-14 with a BoMar rib installed. Despite its 6" barrel length it was his duty gun, his PPC gun and his combat shooting gun. In several conversations with him I learned he gave up reloading when he found a ammo maker who would sell him custom 38 ammo loaded to his specifications and, since he bought 2000 rounds at a time it was cost effective.

I remember him telling me the load was a 158g RNL bullet over 3.5g of Bullseye. That was THE standard 38 Special loading in those days and had been for many years. In that revolver shooter's 6" Smith & Wesson it choreographed at 860 fps. He said in a 4" it would still top 800 fps by a respectable margin. And remember, this was a well known STANDARD load for the 38 Special. Nothing being said about "plus P" or plus anything else.

Today's +P is a joke, and that should be spelled with a capital "J".

Dave

 

[GF]

Am I the only one that is VERY weary of this entire topic? Not to mention all of the BS that goes with it........
Randy

Post it ! Post it again! I'll do it I swear....

... one more plus pee thread and the kitten blows his brains out.

GF

 

[Slidestop]

Road dog, a quick question; I'm a newby both to the forum and to Smith & Wesson. Just Picked up a Model 36, 2" chiefs special, mfg 1969. Do you forsee any problems with +P's in a J frame, it is 95%, safe queen never fired.
Thanks for input..............Ken

 

[GF]

He's dead.

GF

 

[Slidestop]

From the looks of the kitty it was feral and his Browning probably misfired.

 

[Vigo]

Looked at some +P defense rounds today, the velocities listed on the box were similar to what the blog post described. I don't plan on shooting a large number through my 10-5, but will keep them around. I mainly am doing regular 38 target ammo anyway. I think the lighter loads are great for target practice.

 

[Texas Star]

My information on the USAF guns does not pertain to the mild M-41 load, very weak. The PGU round and possibly others were Plus P or beyond. They were developed after the M-41 proved weak in Vietnam. The Air Force wanted more power.

I corresponded with a project engineer for the JSSAP M-9 program and read the continuing test results in, Soldier of Fortune, which went into some depth on the matter.

I don't claim that Dr. Pig is all wet, just that various factors have to be considered in evaluating whether modern .38 ammo is weaker than it used to be. The change in measuring velocities and pressures is an important factor.

Firing BP ammo from around 1900. with no idea of how it was stored, will not necessarily indicate its true orginal velocity. But I did enjoy the links.

Actually, I asked some time back if standard .38 Special ammo from the 1920's was hotter than now, because I armed a character in fan fiction wth a five-inch barrelled M&P, and wondered what velocity she'd have been getting. I guessed maybe 875- 900 FPS, and that seems to jive with what I can learn. That was with smokeless loads.

I do fire Plus P ammo, and don't think that most is loaded really hot. But if the manufacturer says in a blanket statement not to do it or void any warrenty, I think it's wise to shoot it only in guns with a model number stamped in the frame, as the factory recommends.

Keep in mind that many of those AF M-15's were range guns, heavily used. Also remember that the USAF wanted to make the situation look as bad as possible, to prove to bureaucrats that they needed a new handgun that would deliver the ballistics they wanted. NATO standardization was a factor, but not enough that it hadn't been rejected before. The powers that be just said that there were too many .45 autos on hand to warrant a change to share ammo with allies.
By 1984-85, that was changing, and other arguments helped, too. We got the Beretta M-9.

I hope this clears up what I said. I had rather post on this myself, rather than see here what someone else says that I said.

 

[Darkenfast]

The link above to the test of black powder rounds was very interesting. The next question would be: when the new-fangled smokeless loads came out (pretty much at the time the cartridge was introduced, wasn't it?), did they achieve about the same velocities of mid-900fps in a six-inch barrel? If so, that was a nice jump from the .38 S&W/Colt family. In any case, those black powder loads were being shot from turn-of-the-century M&P's, which is an important point. How many of today's 158gr +P loads break 950 from a six-inch barrel?