I've got a rant!! You may not like it....

[nipster]

I paid $525.00. Kittery had a 4" 686-1 that they were asking $450.00. They sold it before I could look at it.

I know our States border one another and I have shopped around, made phone calls and 686's are just not that easy to find here in NH, so the money I paid I felt was fair. Given the condition of a revolver that was born in 86'-87' it was over the top IMHO.

I think I will not regret the 6" as it has one purpose. Hunting.

I kind of had a similar scenario when I bought my first 686. I was looking for a 4", found a 6", liked it so much I kept it and found another 4" later on. I still have both today.

 

[blujax01]

Until you go to sight it in and find there is not enough adjustment in the rear sight to get you on paper much less in the X-Ring.

You have your compass, do the drawing and find out how much 4 degrees puts you off at 25 yards.

First you have to shrink the compass to 3/8". My fatal flaw was trying to make it big enough to actually see 4/360th of a circle. This is still 2x:

 

[fyimo]

I don't rant much and I congrat shooters who buy new S&W revolvers. That said I still go after the P&R revolvers because I can and they are still available. I can buy several beautiful S&W revolvers that are P&R for under $500 each and I think that's a good deal as most of them are in near pristine condition. Revolvers like the Model 10, 14, 15 are fairly easy to find in excellent condition and thay can be had for less the $450 and are great shooters.

I own two Model 617 no dash revolvers and they are excellent shooters and were bought at near new model 617 prices but they had beautiful S&W combat grips on them and no IL.

 

[hittman77]

You are certainly not wrong in your opinions and comments.

Many of us can be guilty of talking down current products whether they be guns, cars, electronics or .... well .... take your pick.

I hope and believe that the younger gun buyers of today will "see the light" by the time they're in their 40's or 50's and have a greater appreciation for the guns we cherish today.

I'm 52 and love my wheel guns. In fact, I'm thinking about thinning the semi-auto herd. Just today I traded a RIA 1911 for a Ruger Redhawk in .44 Magnum.

My son ~ a 22 year old college senior and LOVES the CZ75, Glock 30, etc. But ~ if I do my part and introduce him and his buddies to what revolvers have to offer ...... maybe I'll win some over.

 

[PA Reb]

4 degrees would be out in left field, and is far from precision.

I have not ever seen any revolver that far off though. Maybe 2 degrees, and that can be fixed by a gunsmith or anyone that has a barrel wrench and a frame vise. I fixed it on my Super Blackhawk. Rear sight is perfectly centered now.

And no, I don't have OCD. I have CDO, which is just like OCD, except the letters are alphabetically arranged like they're supposed to be.

I believe S&W continues to make great guns in today's economy. I do believe you and others are missing the point however. Revolvers that "need repaired" should be repaired BEFORE they leave the factory and "a gunsmith or anyone that has a barrel wrench and a frame vise" should not have to repair a brand new gun, period. Granted, the biggest majority of shipped guns are alright but there are increasing numbers that were evidently run through poor QC.

I want S&W to keep their doors open just as bad as the next person but I think they need to do a little better job with QC and pre-shipping inspection. I think if that were to happen, S&W would stay at the top of their field.

 

[LOBO]

If it has a lock, I will not buy it. I don't care who made the gun.

Why not make the lock an option? If S&W did this I'd be willing to pay extra to get the gun I want without a lock.

 

[GregG]

I believe S&W continues to make great guns in today's economy. I do believe you and others are missing the point however. Revolvers that "need repaired" should be repaired BEFORE they leave the factory and "a gunsmith or anyone that has a barrel wrench and a frame vise" should not have to repair a brand new gun, period. Granted, the biggest majority of shipped guns are alright but there are increasing numbers that were evidently run through poor QC.

I want S&W to keep their doors open just as bad as the next person but I think they need to do a little better job with QC and pre-shipping inspection. I think if that were to happen, S&W would stay at the top of their field.

What point did I miss? Someone said 4 degrees was ok, I said it was not. It is not something I would send back to the factory and wait weeks or months to get back and it still not be right. I would have someone locally fix it or buy the tools to do it myself (like me). I'd like for S&W to put out a perfect gun every time but let's face it, in todays corporate market that isn't going to happen. The bean counters decided a long time ago that sloppy work is ok because all of it will not come back, most of it will get ignored or repaired locally.

I also bought an automatic dive watch late last year that ran -7 seconds per day. I *could* have sent it back but decided to buy the case back wrench and adjust it myself. It now runs +2 seconds per day, which is well within COSC standards.

We each have our own ways.

I also do my alignments on my vehicles. My tire wear is great.

 

[ladder13]

I also do my alignments on my vehicles. My tire wear is great.

You need to visit the Corvette Forum and tell everyone how to do wheel alignments. The C6 Grand Sports and ZO6's EAT tires like no tomorrow. Imagine 10,000 miles out of a set of $2,000 tires.

 

[Tinygnat219]

I agree with many of you guys on the pre-80's guns. My own collection is made up almost exclusively of earlier P&R guns and I have a bunch. I don't expect the following opinion is going to be very popular with some of you but that's OK.

My main concern is the constant hammering of S&W, even in subtle and passive ways, for issues that many of us have realized they will never be able to replicate again.

Do we really want to continually pound them for what we see as weakness that are probably the only economically feasible methods they can use to stay solvent?

Let's face it.... revolvers are "out of vogue" for most of the modern young purchasers. They are much more costly to produce than typical autos, even with the MIM and Goodyear type parts. Revolvers today typically don't receive the image of guns carried by the movie-land "super hero's" like they did in years gone by. I believe it's time to think seriously about the impact we're having on any future revolver sales when we turn off the new generations totally from considering buying them.

The concept of era comparison may sound good to enhance the value of our own collections, but when it becomes just a bunch of us older geezers chasing the older guns with no interest from new people I sincerely believe that will diminish the value of revolvers, including the older ones...

I think back to the mid 70's when 29-2's, 25-2's and 57's were retailing for $279. It was a time when many fully loaded cars were retailing for $4 to $5000. Today comparable cars are $40 to $50,000. If the same pass-through increases were made by S&W today, and if figuring the dollar is worth 10% of what it was, that would mean a new presentation cased, wood stocked N frame would cost us $2,729 today. All things being considered, that horrendous price would offer the old 1 year, pay shipping both ways chintzy warranty too, rather than the excellent lifetime warranty provided today....

That's about three times what a 629-6 costs new today. Is it any wonder why S&W has had to try to cut corners?

We are about to enter a huge new inflationary spiral that will dwarf anything we have seen to date. With all the political and economic pressures confronting all firearms manufacturers, I believe we should be helping all of them to survive, not tearing them down over issues that will never be the same again.... and never can be... JMHO and flame suit on...

What say you?

Terry,

Thank you for the great post! I think you hit on an interesting point. Let's face it, revolver sales are dwindling in large part because they're viewed as obsolete by the younger folks and the revolver's disadvantages are simply becoming more and more apparent: Limited capacity, long time to reload, and size in relation to weight. Throw in production cost and the polymer framed auto looks really really really good in comparison.

For the same weight one has with a standard Model 10 with 6 shots of .38 SPL one can get an auto with roughly 3X the capacity of that revolver in a more effective round. I'm talking standard 9MM JHP vs. a .38 SPL JHP.

 

[M29since14]

I want S&W to keep their doors open just as bad as the next person but I think they need to do a little better job with QC and pre-shipping inspection.

Uh-oh. There's that nasty word! ("Inspection") We probably have a quality engineer here who can comment on this much better than I can, but I will give it a whirl. There is a disturbing trend in quality system management to focus almost exclusively on process control. The experts will tell you this is aimed at improving quality and reducing cost.

Obviously, if one can improve the process so much that it is not likely to make bad product, then there will be a decreasing need for final inspection. (Saves money - get rid of those nasty, expensive old inspectors who tell people they have done something wrong!) They're right, of course. When you have to reject at final inspection, the money is already spent (i.e., lost).

The problem with this theory is that it does not take human nature into account. Some employees just don't give a hoot, and even worse, some think they are clever when they deliberately sabotage product. Even a good employee has a bad day, or gets sick and struggles through the day doing substandard work when he should be at home, etc. Process control improvements alone never fully deal with these types of problems, but an independent, well-run final inspection department has very good success with keeping the results of them from reaching the consumer.

The folks who think they are going to save the company a bunch of money with process improvement alone (and make themselves look like heroes) forget - or fail to apply - the first, immutable rule of quality: When non-conformances go up, ramp up inspection. When they go down, ramp it down. There is just no substitute for "checking your work," and there never will be. You may be able to keep the checking to a miminum, but it will always have to be there, at some level that is appropriate to the amount of problems encountered.

Manufacturing is like many other segments of our society right now. First, there is the ridiculous notion that no matter what goes wrong, the employee is never at fault. (This is hogwash, but in the PC-age, it is very easy to sell. ) There is always another cause that process improvement could have cured! Coupled with that notion, it seems we have an abundant supply of new-agers who are out to make a name and/or position for themselves with "progressive thinking" and "new ideas." What they have to offer is not progressive or new at all. In many cases, we already know this stuff just doesn't work, from umpteen years of previous experience. But the reinvent-the-wheelers are alive and well. Like any big corporation, I imagine S&W is susceptible to this problem, which, I believe, will eventually run its course. Then... we will go on to the next bright idea!

That is my "mini-rant" for today, and I apologize to the OP for the slight diversion from his original rant.

 

[nipster]

RE: "I hope S&W can stay in business"...

You have to wonder how many quality control people could be hired if the CEO and other executives too a 1% pay cut... food for thought.

This is the biggest problem with corporate America right now. They are hiring people off the street for minimum wage while paying executives who really do nothing beneficial millions of dollars in salary and perks.

A company selling as many units as S&W is right now should be in excellent financial shape, and I believe they are.

 

[PA Reb]

What point did I miss? Someone said 4 degrees was ok, I said it was not. It is not something I would send back to the factory and wait weeks or months to get back and it still not be right. I would have someone locally fix it or buy the tools to do it myself (like me). I'd like for S&W to put out a perfect gun every time but let's face it, in todays corporate market that isn't going to happen. The bean counters decided a long time ago that sloppy work is ok because all of it will not come back, most of it will get ignored or repaired locally.

I also bought an automatic dive watch late last year that ran -7 seconds per day. I *could* have sent it back but decided to buy the case back wrench and adjust it myself. It now runs +2 seconds per day, which is well within COSC standards.

We each have our own ways.

I also do my alignments on my vehicles. My tire wear is great.

O.K., maybe I didn't write that the way I was thinking and no offense was meant. Let me say it this way ~ Great post but I believe many members here are missing the point. There are too many guns these days leaving the factory............. and if they were right or close to right in the first place ............!

I admire the fact that you and many others are able to repair your own guns and get your vehicles running in tip top condition on your own but, the biggest majority of people (me included) can't . My main point is if a manufacturing company did it right the first time around and has good QC and inspection in place, most of these "minor problems" might just go away or become very few. Realize also that I'm speaking as a consumer and I have no idea how that could all be made into a reality in a business that's trying to compete in today's market.

 

[GregG]

You need to visit the Corvette Forum and tell everyone how to do wheel alignments. The C6 Grand Sports and ZO6's EAT tires like no tomorrow. Imagine 10,000 miles out of a set of $2,000 tires.

The road course guys run several degrees of negative camber so the car handles well. Driving around on the street, they wear the inside of the tires bad. The street race guys don't, they run near zero camber for max tire contact on a launch, but still burn them up from tire spin with 600 rwhp. I port cylinder heads for some of them.

 

[HDS]

I'm younger (30) and the people I hang around seem to all like revolvers to a degree or another. Semis are more popular but revolvers still have a strong following over here IMO.

 

[blujax01]

Uh-oh. There's that nasty word! ("Inspection") We probably have a quality engineer here who can comment on this much better than I can, but I will give it a whirl. There is a disturbing trend in quality system management to focus almost exclusively on process control. The experts will tell you this is aimed at improving quality and reducing cost.

Obviously, if one can improve the process so much that it is not likely to make bad product, then there will be a decreasing need for final inspection. (Saves money - get rid of those nasty, expensive old inspectors who tell people they have done something wrong!) They're right, of course. When you have to reject at final inspection, the money is already spent (i.e., lost)...

I hesitated to cut out one word of your excellent comment but it is too much to chew at one sitting. Sorry, and here goes:

I am a 30 year veteran of an independent testing lab. yoUL see our label on products all around you. I work in the field, visiting manufacturers to verify that the production they put out the door is made with controls in place such that they adhere to the requirements in the Standards.
(I am universally loved wherever I go!)

You are absolutely correct. Process control has supplanted inspection in a movement that began with the teachings of Crosby and Demming after WWII but didn't catch on here until the late 80's. The premise is to get the object made with the least amount of cost at a quality level the customer will not reject. If your vendor has certifications, you can cease incoming inspection. If your work flow is correct and your workers properly educated, you can cut out finished inspection.

When that level has been achieved, take a nickel out of it, run it some more, and see if it still sells.

I've seen the results on this board. People complain that the guns made today lack the quality but balk at the price of the boutique maker. They want the quality they got in the 60's at a price they pay for the reverse engineered stuff made in the present day.

Ain't gonna happen. Everything used to be hand made with machine assistance. Now it's just the opposite.

The idea that one can achieve hand made quality at mass produced prices are now, have been, and will always be...

A fairy tale.

 

[SixGunHunter]

If it has a lock, I will not buy it. I don't care who made the gun.

Why not make the lock an option? If S&W did this I'd be willing to pay extra to get the gun I want without a lock.

IMHO, S&W needs more people on the board like LOBO.

 

[TDC]

Excellent posts, M29since14 and blujax01....

Your unique perspectives about the inner working policies of these manufacturing concerns is something that rarely, if ever, fit into the information equation.

People seriously interested in the how and why manufacturing and marketing decisions are made need to realize how many variables effect the final product. You guys did an excellent job of educating us on some important components of the marketing process..

Thanks for the posts!!

 

[bmcgilvray]

"Can anyone imagine what the current handgun world would be like without Smith & Wesson in it?"


Yes, I can imagine it. I've already made my peace with the realization that nothing is forthcoming from Smith & Wesson that I would be willing to spend money to obtain. They aren't a part of my world now. If only they'd produce a revolver that that I could like. They used to produce revolvers I liked and even some automatics I could admire. They changed. I didn't change. Perhaps change was required but it shut some of their loyal customers out and that's OK.


"The one question that seems to be unanswered from the unhappy posters is what you want to happen with S&W. Is it the desire to have the company close if they don't, or can't, manufacture revolvers to the standards of the past?"


Here's one answer. Yes, I'm fine with watching them close if they don't, can't, or won't manufacture handguns I'm willing to purchase. They may as well close for they don't now please a formerly loyal customer. There are a number of features on their current revolvers that I particularly want to avoid. I deliberately choose to be close-minded, rejecting their current products. I don't even want to know about them except to learn that certain changes have been made that I again find are desirable.

Smith & Wesson made plenty of handguns in their past that suited and are still obtainable. If they didn't want to have to compete with themselves then they shouldn't have made so many great revolvers back when. It's no big deal. Though it's frequently not for the better, change is inevitable but I'm not required to support current manufacturing and marketing decisions with my money.

These strange threads cheering for Smith & Wesson as it currently produces handguns come up here with some frequency. It's difficult to understand why some feel like fellow forum members should be compelled to continue to be loyal to a company and purchase its current products when the products simply are not appreciated.

 

[TDC]

bmcgilvray,

You're a highly respected and knowledgeable member of this board. I can't speak for others but it saddens me that you have found the current S&W offering so totally unacceptable and unworthy of any consideration.

I don't believe anyone here can or will dismiss your unhappiness as just another temporary "crank" complaint, but one that reaches deeply into how you view the manufacturing changes. I respect your position and understand they have been a major disappointment to you.

As I stated in the original post, I'm a pre-80s collector too and those early era guns are where my heart is. I'm also a shooter/hunter with handguns who has come to a different conclusion than you have of the newer products, based on actual ownership and frequent use of the later guns.

I don't want to see S&W close their doors, or discontinue the R&D and innovation that is directed to revolver products. I want to see what improvements and new concepts can be applied to the catalog line-up of revolvers and still be able to choose from the wide number of calibers, frames, finishes and barrel lengths they offer.

I too miss the old hand fitting, forged parts, beautiful blues and functional simplicity that used to be, but realize those days are gone and can never be with us again. The cost of providing those features would be so high today very few would or could buy them.

I hear ya and I know others do to, my friend, but in this day and age of pending gun control and the potential loss of all gun ownership, I wish more of us could stick together to disallow any erosion of support for any manufacturer struggling to stay alive with the horrendous political and economic pressure that exists...

I hope S&W can make a revolver again that will recreate the old passion you've felt before. The kind that puts a big smile on your face when you open the box. They've succeeded in that endeavor for me and I believe, many others...

Thanks for taking the time to express your thoughts... We hear you....

 

[turbo38gn]

Terry, I just want to say, what a great response. I am so glad I sat on my hands today... Thank you so much.