Won this rusty locked up S&W 1917 snubbie at auction yesterday

I rarely consider myself so bold to disagree with Bettis1 but ipsnay on the round-butting, hammer bobbing, and other "hatchet murdering" of this old warrior. That's an N-frame and it deserves better treatment than that! Those configurations are best reserved for the little "ladies' guns." (I- and J-frames :D )

I kinda agree with you. If I do keep it a snubby, I'm not bobbing the hammer nor rounding the grips. That way if I change my mind later, I can put it back to full length barrel military specs. (Even if the barrel is Brazilian and not U.S. it's close enough for me).
I've got big hands anyway and I like larger grips vs small rounded ones. It won't be a concealed carry gun.


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Bill, if the gathering consensus is correct and the stags are real, I would be tempted to take those nice stags and put them on that gorgeous Commercial Model. Then I would experiment with the rest of the gun with some random set of grips on it and see whether the barrel can be saved (as is or shortened.) If it couldn't, I would probably grab an INA barrel and polish the lettering off of it... most of the lettering from the gun will be gone anyway, right? Now you should have a good solid platform to build whatever big blaster you want, with no guilt about collector or historical value. You can let your imagination run wild and have fun with it, and isn't that really what you wanted in the first place?

Regards,
Froggie

You pretty much nailed it Froggie. Only I'm not really that nuts about the looks of those India Sanbar stag grips. I'm thinking of selling them to defray somewhat the cost I spent on the revolver. Everything else you nailed though. I have another set of S&W grips I could put on it temporarily just for experimenting like you said. And again just like you said, if the short barrel shoots okay and has good rifling, I'll probably keep it. But I'm going to go ahead and get that I.N.A. barrel someone offered me for $50.00 just in case I ever need it. You are correct that after copious buffing and polishing to get rid of corrosion, most of the lettering will be gone and I'd do the same with an I.N.A. barrel if I decided to put a full length barrel on it. I won't do a hammer bob or grip frame rounding though just in case I keep it a snubby and later decide I like the full length barrel better. At least that way I haven't limited my options away from it being military spec.

You are right that it is exactly what I wanted. An old kinda rusty somewhat beater, with cut barrel that I didn't have to worry about destroying a pristine collector's piece. Originally I had thought about putting a .44 special tapered barrel with half moon front sight on it, and adding a .44 magnum cylinder. That's something I'd really like to have....a 1917 chambered for .44 magnum! But alas, I've found out at this site that the older N frames aren't properly heat treated for such pressures so I'd have to wait until I could maybe find a fixed sight beater model 58 frame or some other magnum N frame fixed sighted frame to do that project.

But that does bring me to a question. What about this cyrogenic freezing they do for receivers that do the same thing as heat treating? I have a friend who knows someone who does that and they dipped Chinese M14 (semi-auto only, actually Chinese M1a's) receivers into the nitrogen just to make sure they came up to U.S. military specs hardness (although I have a non dipped semi-auto Chinese M1A I've fired a lot with no problems).

So....I was wondering, would it be possible since I have someone who might be able to do it very inexpensively (or maybe free along with some of my SOT dealer's friends stuff, nice to have contacts) to have the 1917 frame cyrogenically frozen to where the molecules come closer together and effectively do the same as a heat treatment to where an old war horse like this one's frame could possibly be made to where it WOULD hold .44 magnum pressures? And if that is possible, would I have to contact S&W to find out what that hardness factor the metal needs is? Is doing that cyrogenic freezing to treat my 1917 N frame to .44 magnum pressures possible?

Yes I know, as you said, my imagination running wild. If I can't do something like that, I'll just have to wait until I ever (if ever) just get my hands on a fixed sight, magnum N frame (frame only) that I can put together with a .44 special tapered barrel, cut the .44 special barrel back to 5 & 1/2 inches (since I hear they weren't made in that length) and put a .44 mag cylinder in to finally get the fixed sighted, 1917 clone in .44 magnum I've always dreamed of.

Now why doesn't S&W make a "Classics" version of the 1917 in .44 magnum? Anyone know? I would think it would sell like hotcakes. I'd buy one (and disable the lock & weld fill in that ugly lock hole). The old tapered barrel, fixed rear sight, half moon front sights, N frame S&W's just have a beauty that the modern full barrel lug bull barrels or even non full lug but flat top barrel with big ramp front sights ones just don't have (for me anyway). To me the 1917 N frame S&W is the most beautiful double action revolver ever created. Now if only I could just get one put together SAFELY in .44 mag......


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Round Butt?
Correct me if I'm wrong.(I may very well be.) I think that round butting a pre-war 'N' frame will involve a considerable amount of welding.

Look at this S&W 1917 in .455 (British) that had a "round butting" done on its grip frame to make it a "birds head" type round grip that was popular in England back in the day. I wonder if with that drastic "rounding" of the butt if the gunsmith had to do any welding on that one?

I bid on this one but it just went too high.
Check out that hammer extension too. Plus the add on target sights that didn't modify the frame. At first I thought it was ugly, but then it kinda grew on me. I'd have converted it to .45 Colt by shaving a little off the recoil shield and refinished it and had a sweet .45 Colt caliber shooter. But again, the bids went too high.

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Look at this S&W 1917 in .455 (British) that had a "round butting" done on its grip frame to make it a "birds head" type round grip that was popular in England back in the day...

I bid on this one but it just went too high.

That is almost satanic! :mad: Consider yourself lucky you avoided that monstrosity and carry on. ;)
 
1917 .455 British

Look at this S&W 1917 in .455 (British) that had a "round butting" done on its grip frame to make it a "birds head" type round grip that was popular in England back in the day. I wonder if with that drastic "rounding" of the butt if the gunsmith had to do any welding on that one?

I bid on this one but it just went too high.
Check out that hammer extension too. Plus the add on target sights that didn't modify the frame. At first I thought it was ugly, but then it kinda grew on me. I'd have converted it to .45 Colt by shaving a little off the recoil shield and refinished it and had a sweet .45 Colt caliber shooter. But again, the bids went too high.

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I like that round butt long barreled old N-frame. Handguns that appear to have an interesting history appeal to me big time. That one wasn't destined to be a vintage pristine safe queen...that gun was actually used!
 
When I suggested round butting the gun I had something like these in mind. If you will search the Forum for "belly guns" or something like that, I think you will find several good examples of big bore, short barrel guns with various combinations of features.

The first is a John Jovino modification of a Model 25-2 in .45 ACP that was done in 1983. Jovino was one of the first custom gunsmiths to customize the large caliber handguns in this fashion. The next is a Model 29-4 .44 Magnum that the S&W FActory made for their largest wholesale distributor, RSR, in 1989 when they realized the market that Jovino and others had created.

Bob


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(Joel, These could be "little ladies guns" but any lady who can spend a day at the range running full charges through these-especially the .44 Mag- should be treated with considerable respect!);)
 
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(Joel, These could be "little ladies guns" but any lady who can spend a day at the range running full charges through these-especially the .44 Mag- should be treated with considerable respect!);)

Bob, you'll have to forgive my overt dislike of RB N-frames. As to the rest, I was taught to treat all ladies with due respect, and if they have a gun - any gun - even more so! :eek: :D
 
Joel,

I gotta agree completely with your comments on the ladies...very rude, to say nothing about being very foolish, to do otherwise.

To the OP, there is a long running thread on short barreled N frames over in the 1980-Present room right now. There are several M1917's in it that might give you some ideas.

Bob
 
Dave T - that is one completely awesome piece...

having said that - just for me only - and I've been looking for a gun like the OP got for a couple years now, as I want to put on a spare 1955 5" bbl, and just have fun with it...
 
Dave T - that is one completely awesome piece...having said that - just for me only - and I've been looking for a gun like the OP got for a couple years now, as I want to put on a spare 1955 5" bbl, and just have fun with it...

Interesting that you should mention that. Just a couple of weeks back there was a thread showing a 1917 with a 1950's ribbed barrel. The poster was unhappy with the looks of the ribbed barrel mating to the round top frame.
 
Here's a Victory the FBI SAA in charge of the Las Vegas office had done up in the early 50's and carried it as a backup until his retirement in 1972. He also liked the round butt. :)
Chuck
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That's a nice piece. An almost round butt that looks like a Colt Detective Special.
 
Picked up my cut barrel 1917 S&W from my dealer today. It was in much better shape than I had thought from the auction photos. Even at the dealer's the hammer and trigger worked and the cylinder turned although on several of the cylinder's chambers it was hard to turn and needed my manual help to turn. I saw that the cylinder release button was forward so there should have been nothing holding the cylinder in the frame. So I gently tapped the cylinder against my knee several times and it popped right out.

When I got it home I found out what was causing the cylinder to lock up on several chambers and also what was causing the ejector rod to bind. The ejector rod was easy to unscrew. In fact it was slightly loose. I unscrewed it, took out the skinny rod and set that aside, and on inspection found that the ejector rod was slightly bent and would not eject cartridges fully.

Shiny spot on middle of ejector rod below is where it was bent....
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Ejector rod laying next to revolver.
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So I laid it on a flat surface and rolled the ejector rod til I found the high spot. Then carefully tapped it straight with a hammer. It works back and forth smoothly now and fully ejects. Fixed pretty good with just a few strategic taps of a hammer. However; I'm still going to get a new old stock ejector rod for it that I've found because the big end of the rod where it is knurled is buggered up and the knurling is scratched away and gone from it being bent. It works but doesn't look pretty and still slightly binds on several chambers when the cylinder turns so I'll put on the new one and save the old one for a spare part that needs further straightening to prevent binding on all chambers of the cylinder when it turns. So everything is working pretty good mechanically now and I didn't have to soak it in kroil oil or anything. All I did was spray the insides with a bit of WD40 to slick things up a bit.

I haven't taken the side plate off and gotten to the innards yet. Even still, by all mechanics and appearances I think everything inside is okay. Cylinder lockup on both hammer back and hammer down with trigger held back is VERY tight. Much tighter than on most new revolvers! Not bad for an antique! I was very impressed with its tight lockup. The yoke mates to the frame so well that I can hardly see the seam!! They just don't take the time to hand fit revolvers like this anymore. The old saying is true...."They don't make them like they used to."

I took it out back and fired six rounds out of it and it functioned smoothly and perfectly except for dragging a little on two chambers because of that still ever so slightly bent ejector rod. Rifling looks good too but you can't really tell from this pic. End of barrel was nicely rounded....
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Next I took off and inspected the grips that came with it, and like others here had told me, they were indeed genuine India sanbar stag grips. Wearing an oven mitt, I heated a paperclip with a torch lighter til it was red hot, then touched that to the back of one of the grips. It did not melt. Just made a little brown mark. Also I can see some of the "bark" of the stags on the inside of the grips as well as see different color tones going through the grips. No doubt they are geniune India sanbar stag grips. There is some pencil writing on the back of them that is the number "306" and a name written in cursive "Onama" or "Onawa" not sure if that second to last letter is a m or a w. Perhaps they belonged to an Asian chap at one time.

Backside of India sanbar stag grips showing "bark" going through partially to backside along with number 306 and Onama or Onawa.
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Backside of India Sanbar stags off the revolver
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Top side of India sanbar stags off the revolver
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India sanbar stags on the revolver.
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There are all kinds of small stamps all over the revolver. Crowns on the left frame and barrel, some kind of stamp that looks kind of like the head of an eagle (but not totally sure) in several spots, some kind of stamp between each chamber of the cylinder on the outside of cylinder, a small rectangular stamp on the left frame just below the cylinder that has some kind of letter or symbol and then says "ENGLISH MAKE" I think. It was so small had to look through the magnifying glass to see it, as I did most of the markings.

The serial number is 997XX on the butt and matches the serial on the cylinder. The barrel has a different serial number on its flat on the bottom of barrel.

I'm no expert on this, but if I had to guess, I'd say it was a lend lease revolver sent to England and stamped with their crowns and markings in addition to our normal U.S. military stamps. Then at some time came back into the U.S. Perhaps while still in English service it made its way to India or Asia and was owned by someone named "Onama" or "Onawa" who put the India sanbar stag grips on it.
I know, I know, it sounds spookily like OBAMA! Lol. But it is definitely either Onama or Onawa.

I received in my mail today a set of grips member here Lee Barner had graciously sent me. (Thanks again Lee!)
I took off the India sanbar stag grips and put the plastic ones with polished wood inserts on Lee sent. They are a lot like my other set on my commercial 1917 only not as thick. I have really big hands and these grips were wider than the India sanbar stags and filled my hands much better. See the comparison between the India sanbar stags thickness next to Lee's thicker plastic and wooden ones....

India sanbar stags showing thickness.
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Now Lee's plastic and polished wood ones showing their thickness.....
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Now two below pics comparing Lee's plastic and wood ones with my more thicker plastic and wood ones on my commercial model.
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I also installed the lanyard ring that was missing today. In below pic you can see how lanyard ring goes upward into bottom of grip frame and is held in place by a pin....
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Another interesting thing I couldn't see in the auction pics but saw as soon as I got it, was that obviously someone at some time had also installed a front sight and base on the cut snubby barrel. Not sure why it is missing. Either taken off on purpose or came unsoldered. You can see that in below pic where the shiny unblued spot is on the barrel.
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All I have to do now is to replace the ejector rod, buff the rust and pits out, get it real shiny, then put a front sight base and sight on it, then hot tank blue it and it should look like new.

After today's experience I feel I did really good on getting this one in the shape it is in for the price I paid.

I'll keep y'all updated on the project as it progresses in this same thread.

That's all for now til the next episode on this project.



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Well Bill, you 'done' real well on that one!

I believe you're correct about it being a 'lend-lease' gun. The "English Made" is a poor stamping of "Not English Made" which is stamped on all guns that leave the UK.

I like your plans for it. What's your plan for a front sight? It must have been a 'cold' solder joint.

A couple of thoughts, as you probably know WD-40 is only a penetrant, ok for cleaning but not a good lubricant. It dries. Also it can deactivate primers if it gets near loaded rounds.

The 'bark' on the back of the India Sambar (with an M) is actually the porous antler core. On many of the current poor stag grips it actually shows thru on the outer surface!

Keep us posted and thanks for sharing,
 
I like your plans for it. What's your plan for a front sight?

Thanks Hondo. Well since the rifling in the cut barrel looks good, I'll keep it a snubby. But I'm still going to pick up a full length barrel just to have in case I ever change my mind. I'll buff the revolver out to a mirror polish before I get it hot tank blued. Going to look good when it is finished.

For a front sight I might make/mill out a base and half moon front sight that replicates the look of the 1917 front sight and torch solder it on or maybe even J&B weld epoxy it on which would be even easier. JacktheToad might be changing out a bad shot out rifling barrel on his 1917 to a 625 snubby barrel and I might wait to see when he does that if I can use his old shot out barrel to cut the factory half moon front sight off it to put on mine. Either way I'll "get er done".

I plan on keeping the vintage look with half moon front sight and lanyard ring, but as a snubby and WITHOUT modifying or rounding the grip frame. That way I don't destroy the ability to change it back to full length barrel military specs if I decide to change to a full length barrel sometime in the future.

For sure I'll keep updating this thread until the project is complete.


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This. Snub 1917 would just be cool.

That's what she's going to be alright. Only with a slightly longer than totally snub barrel since I'm keeping the barrel the length it is. It's about the same length or just a little shorter than Indiana Jone's 4 inch barreled 1917 S&W. Perhaps I'll call it "ShortRound" after Indy's boy sidekick in "Temple of Doom" Lol.


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WOW! Isn't it great when a 'pig-in-poke' gun is better than you thought?
It sounds like it has acquired a unique history of its own that you respect by keeping it as near 'as is' as you can ("If only it could talk..." ;) )

BTW, that was an excellent, informative report!
 
Nice find! Looks like the problems were minor.

If you're going to polish and hot blue the gun,,attach the new front sight with (real) silver solder both for strength and to make sure it doesn't come off in the bluing tank.

The new silver bearing soft solder is strong and is supposed to hold up in the tank.
But on a 45acp and a small area of bond,,I'd go with the real stuff.
It's a High Temp operation,,so use something to protect the bore from scale.
Boric acid powder mixed w/alcohol to a paste works well and is cheap.
 
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