Why all the 40 caliber bashing?

[M29since14]

I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, and I know this the S&W forum, but does that mean there is strong partisanship towards anything Smith & Wesson? I really don't know and it's an honest question. Thanks.

Possibly. At about that same time, S&W was not in the best graces with most of us handgunners. The resentment over the alliance with the Clinton Administration was pretty pronounced. Fortunately, that matter is now long passed, and the present management of the company is not hidebound by any of the ridiculous concepts contained in that agreement. Bickering about the .40SW has lasted longer, so while that may have been a minor factor in the early days of the cartridge, nowadays, I think that aspect is no longer operative.

IMHO, the .40 will forever be seen as neither fish nor fowl, exactly along the lines described earlier as pleasing neither the 9mm or the .45 camps, both of which are much older than the history of the .40SW cartridge.

 

[StatesRightist]

It never ceases to amaze me when people spout off on things and have half an idea what they are talking about. Carry the 40 S&W if it makes you happy, it's a good round, but it's certainly not a perfect round either. It's recoil bothers some and they prefer the 9mm. It does not have the mass or the track record of the .45, though it has shown good results.

1. The FBI dropped the 10mm because women and smaller men could not handle the recoil, no more, no less. It was a compromise round, period. The FBI was afraid of the 9mm after Miami and again, women and smaller men could not handle the .45. It's called politics, not ballistics. I've seen LE make decisions based on the fact they thought the word magnum would scare juries. I've seen one Chief not go with the .45, even though he felt it was the best choice because it was so close to .44 in number that he thought juries might confuse the two. Caliber choices in LE are rarely made just on the premise of what's most effective.
2. Another inaccurate statement, it's too powerful, wrong again. Spend 20 minutes looking at ballistics data and this statement is obvious BS. 10mm does well in testing.
3. The round is too powerful for HP's, wrong, they make bonded bullets now, not to mention copper rounds which do not require a jacket.
4. The .45 is not "too powerful," maybe you can't handle the recoil, but the .45 has been proven in multiple wars to be a fantastic man stopper.

The only accurate statement I remember from above was 10mm makes some develop a flinch, that part it true. If it does you, definitely stay away from it.

All of this caliber debate is nothing but mental auto erotica, shot placement is key, anything from .38 up will do the job. Do larger calibers provide a little extra margin of error? maybe, some would argue maybe not. Choose a caliber you can shoot well and leave it at that, without disparaging others choices or popping off half baked "facts" would be my advice.

When people ask me what to buy, I tell them pick the largest caliber you shoot well and practice regularly, till you can shoot no larger than 12" groups down to 25 yds, then you have the "best" caliber for you.

I did want to edit/state one other thing. My comments are based on a CCW standpoint, not from a LEO perspective. There are calibers such as 38 spl I would not carry as an LEO due to it's barrier penetration issues. As a CCW, in most cases, if you shoot through a car windshield for example, you are going to jail, that's not as much of an issue for LEO's, so .38's are fine as a CCW gun IMO.

 

[Gorenut]

Shouldn't worry too much what others think. If you like the round and shoot well with it.. go with it. When I first started shooting semis, all of mine were chambered in 40SW and 357SIG. Eventually I changed everything to 9mm simply because I didn't see much of a benefit in the extra cost. With 9mm, I shoot a lot more and as a result became a more proficient shooter. Otherwise, I have more fun shooting revolvers if I want something louder.

 

[Jeff1000]

"When people ask me what to buy, I tell them pick the largest caliber you shoot well and practice regularly, till you can shoot no larger than 12" groups down to 25 yds, then you have the "best" caliber for you."

States Rightist, Sounds like solid advice, but are there actually shooters who can shoot a .45ACP or a .40S&W as well or better than a 9mm? Thanks, and thanks Gorenut.

 

[Hammerless-12]

I agree with StatesRightist, people you really need to read the old military trails for the 45 verses the other calibers. If you really want to know just how the 38 cal. does as far as killing small angry men, its all in there. Also wouldn't hurt to do a little historical reading on why the U.S. Military choose the design of the Colt 1911 for all the years they did. The FBI as well as any other law enforcement agency had to take into consideration many other factors , such as pedestrians, in choosing their caliber of sidearm. I let the U.S. Military do all the homework when it comes to my personal defence choice. Another thing that is interesting is why the U.S Military went to the smaller 9mm, other than politics it was because a small number of new recruits could not handle the 45 cal pistols recoil, and it was to large a weapon for smaller sized hands. But the biggest factor was because of women being able have equal rights and actually be in "battlefield" positions. At this time the U.S. Army adopted the "3 shot stop" policy rather than the "one shot kill". Oh yes we have come along way in bullet design, but the facts are, usually the bigger the better, especially in a defencive position where your adrenaline is pumping and you have to make that snap decision to shoot or not to shoot. Far better than weapon choice or caliber choice is PRACTICE. Be able to handle your weapon in any given situation. The more range time the better. I even like to practice shooting at night, or low light conditions. Once you feel very comfortable with your weapon of choice learn to "point shoot" that weapon. God be with all of us so we may never have to use these weapons for anything other than paper targets. Happy shooting one and all.

 

[StatesRightist]

"When people ask me what to buy, I tell them pick the largest caliber you shoot well and practice regularly, till you can shoot no larger than 12" groups down to 25 yds, then you have the "best" caliber for you."

States Rightist, Sounds like solid advice, but are there actually shooters who can shoot a .45ACP or a .40S&W as well or better than a 9mm? Thanks, and thanks Gorenut.

That's kinda of a loaded question with several answers, but I'll give you my thoughts.

The .45 1911 is the basis for modern shooting competitions, note I said modern, revolver contests were the beginnings of it. There were many years the .45 1911 was considered the most accurate gun made. Many believe it still is.

If you noted any bias in my thoughts, it was as based on what Jim noted, LE and the military went to 9mm so women could handle the sidearm. I have very distinct feelings on the value of personnel you have to make exceptions for, but that's another debate. As far as the 9mm goes, it is a very accurate round and a good CCW choice. When you look at LE and military findings, due to it's lower recoil, it is the round members of each shoot the most accurately. This is a shooter comfort phenomenon, not a ballistics thing. You will note LE and the MCS are now gravitating back toward larger calibers.

I personally despise the .40 because I do not like the different way it's recoil is experienced and I see it as a compromise round. This is purely personal bias on my part, it is a fine round, I'm just stubborn some times. The 40's street results are excellent.

So to answer your question, you need to ask which are accurate enough, by that I mean if one shoots 1/2" smaller groups out of a vice, does that make it a better CCW weapon, no it does not, all are accurate enough for that. If you were a comp shooter, then it would matter.

If you are looking for the caliber more people shoot well, buy the 9mm. If you can rent all of them, buy the one you shot the best. Your 9mm compromise is lesser barrier penetration, but as a CCW, that's rarely an issue.

Recoil does not bother me and I shoot big bores well, I carry CCW a 1076, M29 or 645 a majority of the time with either a 642 or CS9 BUG. I feel more comfortable and better armed with a larger round, but again, that's personal opinion, not something there is absolute concrete data to support.

Hope that helps......

One other thought, 9mm is cheaper to own and shoot, if money's an issue, as Jim said, practice time means more than caliber above the .38spl level.

 

[brucev]

"Ironically, the .45 GAP is to the .45 ACP what the .40 S&W is to the 10mm. So why is it floundering? Easy. The .40 was developed out of the 10mm, which was not an established caliber. The GAP took on the venerable ACP, and got its butt kicked. It may very well be a 'better' round for duty use (if not reloaders), but it costs even more than .45 ACP, when you can even find a place stocking it."


Hum... sounds like the .45GAP is behind the 8-ball. However, all is not lost. I just now returned home from doing a funeral. A Ga. state patrol officer escorted the procession. He and I got to talking... just before the funeral started. He told me they carried the Glock chambered in .45 GAP. He said he liked it because the pistol was small enough to be easily gripped and that the .45 ACP was more powerful than the older .45 ACP... something on the order of 1,000 FPS for the .45 GAP and about 800 FPS for the .45 ACP.

 

[Fat Old Guy]

that the .45 [GAP] was more powerful than the older .45 ACP... something on the order of 1,000 FPS for the .45 GAP and about 800 FPS for the .45 ACP.

From Federal's web site

.45 GAP, 230 gr Hydra-shok: 880 FPS, 395 ft-lbs
.45 ACP, 230 gr Hydra-shok: 900 FPS, 412 ft-lbs


.45 GAP, 185 gr Hydra-shok: 1090 fps, 488 ft-lbs
.45 ACP, 165 gr Hydra-shok: 1060 fps, 412 ft-lbs

.45 GAP, 230 gr FMJ: 880 fps, 395 ft-lbs
.45 ACP, 230 gr FMJ: 890 fps, 404 ft-lbs

The second one is really comparing apples to pears since the bullet weights are not similar. However, I do not see an advantage to carrying a round named for a pants company.

 

[Jeff1000]

That's kinda of a loaded question with several answers, but I'll give you my thoughts.

The .45 1911 is the basis for modern shooting competitions, note I said modern, revolver contests were the beginnings of it. There were many years the .45 1911 was considered the most accurate gun made. Many believe it still is.

If you noted any bias in my thoughts, it was as based on what Jim noted, LE and the military went to 9mm so women could handle the sidearm. I have very distinct feelings on the value of personnel you have to make exceptions for, but that's another debate. As far as the 9mm goes, it is a very accurate round and a good CCW choice. When you look at LE and military findings, due to it's lower recoil, it is the round members of each shoot the most accurately. This is a shooter comfort phenomenon, not a ballistics thing. You will note LE and the MCS are now gravitating back toward larger calibers.

I personally despise the .40 because I do not like the different way it's recoil is experienced and I see it as a compromise round. This is purely personal bias on my part, it is a fine round, I'm just stubborn some times. The 40's street results are excellent.

So to answer your question, you need to ask which are accurate enough, by that I mean if one shoots 1/2" smaller groups out of a vice, does that make it a better CCW weapon, no it does not, all are accurate enough for that. If you were a comp shooter, then it would matter.

If you are looking for the caliber more people shoot well, buy the 9mm. If you can rent all of them, buy the one you shot the best. Your 9mm compromise is lesser barrier penetration, but as a CCW, that's rarely an issue.

Recoil does not bother me and I shoot big bores well, I carry CCW a 1076, M29 or 645 a majority of the time with either a 642 or CS9 BUG. I feel more comfortable and better armed with a larger round, but again, that's personal opinion, not something there is absolute concrete data to support.

Hope that helps......

One other thought, 9mm is cheaper to own and shoot, if money's an issue, as Jim said, practice time means more than caliber above the .38spl level.

Thankyou Sir, that does help.

It's interesting though that there isn't more negative ink towards the 9mm if it was adopted mostly for female shooters. It seems to me that the .40 S&W is more manly but it's considered "gay" because it's a "compromise". I still like the theory that the name-calling is way to indirectly bash Smith & Wesson. I could be completely wrong though. I'm still trying to figure-out how to get an unrestricted LTC Class A license in Massachusetts. Thanks again. You guys are great.

 

[Martimus]

So 9mm must be "supergay" then.

Nah! cuz 9mm isn't SHORT & WEAK!!

 

[Jeff1000]

From Federal's web site

.45 GAP, 230 gr Hydra-shok: 880 FPS, 395 ft-lbs
.45 ACP, 230 gr Hydra-shok: 900 FPS, 412 ft-lbs


.45 GAP, 185 gr Hydra-shok: 1090 fps, 488 ft-lbs
.45 ACP, 165 gr Hydra-shok: 1060 fps, 412 ft-lbs

.45 GAP, 230 gr FMJ: 880 fps, 395 ft-lbs
.45 ACP, 230 gr FMJ: 890 fps, 404 ft-lbs

The second one is really comparing apples to pears since the bullet weights are not similar. However, I do not see an advantage to carrying a round named for a pants company.

"GAP" has other meanings too.

 

[Jeff1000]

Nah! cuz 9mm isn't SHORT & WEAK!!

AHA!! There it is! Evidence. It is about Smith & Wesson bashing. Another case cracked.

 

[CoMF]

Frankly, I think it's pretty pointless. Then again, I pretty much feel that way about any sort of "caliber war" discussion.

 

[StatesRightist]

Thankyou Sir, that does help.

It's interesting though that there isn't more negative ink towards the 9mm if it was adopted mostly for female shooters. It seems to me that the .40 S&W is more manly but it's considered "gay" because it's a "compromise". I still like the theory that the name-calling is way to indirectly bash Smith & Wesson. I could be completely wrong though. I'm still trying to figure-out how to get an unrestricted LTC Class A license in Massachusetts. Thanks again. You guys are great.

You are welcome.

Trust me, there were tons of negative writings on the 9mm ten years ago, it's more accepted now. Plus 9mm proponents will rightly point out in Europe the 9mm is widely accepted by all, the Germans killed a lot of people with it. You know us Americans though, bigger is always better and the .45 and .357 were well entrenched when the military went to the Beretta and truly started the 9mm debate in earnest.

Good luck on the LTC class A. My advice would be buy you a couple of vending machines and place them somewhere. Then you can truly say you carry cash sums in your daily business. I've been told that is the best way to get a class A rather than B LTC in MA....again, JMO.

 

[Martimus]

pretty much feel that way about any sort of "caliber war" discussion.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

 

[Jeff1000]

You are welcome.

Trust me, there were tons of negative writings on the 9mm ten years ago, it's more accepted now. Plus 9mm proponents will rightly point out in Europe the 9mm is widely accepted by all, the Germans killed a lot of people with it. You know us Americans though, bigger is always better and the .45 and .357 were well entrenched when the military went to the Beretta and truly started the 9mm debate in earnest.

Good luck on the LTC class A. My advice would be buy you a couple of vending machines and place them somewhere. Then you can truly say you carry cash sums in your daily business. I've been told that is the best way to get a class A rather than B LTC in MA....again, JMO.

I have heard the 9mm called the NATO round.

I'm pretty much resigned to the sad reality that my second amendment constitutional rights aren't enough to secure a license to carry concealed in my city. And the powers that be would rather have out-of-control crime, like in my city, than to, god forbid, grant someone their rights. I truly despise statists.

Good thinking on the vending machines. Believe it or not, in my city, even that might not be enough for the chief. There was a local newspaper article about an attorney, with his office in a really bad part of the city, who was receiving death threats and was turned down for a LTC Class A unrestricted. His life was in danger just walking from his office to his car at night too, but the statists would still rather disarm a law-abiding citizen and let the criminals run wild.

Thanks.

 

[missiondude]

DSSG

I shoot minor power factor 40 S&W in IDPA. Does that make me double secret super gay?

 

[Fat Old Guy]

Trust me, there were tons of negative writings on the 9mm ten years ago, it's more accepted now.

Ten? Twenty, thirty or even forty years ago, the popular thing to do was bash the 9mm. Then the pendulum swung and they had to say nice things about it because the police were issuing it and gun writers can't say bad things about police equipment until is has been superseded.

Then the .40 came around and suddenly the 9mm was bad again and the .40 was the great thing. Now we have the .45 GAP which is supposed to be the same as the .45 ACP, only better.

The gun world is much like the car world. Everything is great until the new model comes out. I used to subscribe to a number of car magazines until I noticed a trend. This year they would say that the new model of the Zoomerada is so much better than last years which was loose and sloppy and slower than molasses. However, when you looked up the review of last year's Zoomerada, you read about how tight and quick and blindly fast it was.

I wouldn't want to be shot with a .32 or a .380 or even a .22 LR. I'm really more concerned with the skills of the person behind the trigger.

All that being said, it is still fun to make fun of the .40, the 9mm and the .45 GAP because the .45 ACP is king.

 

[Jeff1000]

I shoot minor power factor 40 S&W in IDPA. Does that make me double secret super gay?

Probably not when the bullets are flying, but as a general rule, yes.

 

[StatesRightist]

I shoot minor power factor 40 S&W in IDPA. Does that make me double secret super gay?

That depends on what you were wearing/color and if you range master's name is Serge or something similar? Also, did they serve Chardonnay afterward.