Why all the 40 caliber bashing?

[GetSmith]

Absolutly to each thier own. I'm not trying to convience anybody what to shoot. I'm new to guns and shooting my self. Within the last eight weeks I have bought a 686+ 4 inch, Marlin .357, Mossberg 500, and just picked up an M&Pc 40 for CCW.

Why did I choose the M&Pc 40. For my state CA, the mag capacity cant be more than 10. That negates many arguments for lower caliber to obtain higher capacity.

Although I have not shot much I have seen the carnage that differnt calibers do, I work as an X-ray technologist in the ER of a trauma center. Granted many of the gang bangers I see might not be trained profiecent shooters and shot placement does count. Still if it's me 5'7 and 160 lbs against three 6 foot plus 300 lbs lbs gang bangers looking to fund thier next drug score I want my 10 shots to count the most.

I have seen many 9mm bullets stoped in the femur or spinal collum. If somebody is druged out they might keep comming at you with a bullet in the femur. On the other hand just last weekend there was a 23 y/o gang banger brought in at 2 am. as soon as I saw the xray I new he was not shot with a 9mm. The right illiac wing of his pelvis was shattered. A 9mm would have ricocheted off the pelvis. Sure enough when they dug the bullet out it was a 40 or 45 cal. He had massive internal bleeding due to the fractured pelvis, Hopefully he died on the OR table. One less BG.

I bought a 9mm barrel and mag for my M&P and plan to shoot 500 rounds of 9mm just to be sure it functions fine. Im not planning to use it for SD, Just wanted the option if I run into a shortage of 40cal.

The best advice I have heard is shoot the largest caliber you can handle. Price maters not when you are protecting the lives of your family. Plus if you shop around the price difference between calibers in negligible. I just bought 3000 rounds of 40cal. Federal 165 grain at $13.50 a box shipped. The 500 rounds of 9mm were only $1.50 a box cheaper.

I cant wait to shoot this gun and get to know what I can do with it. The recoil was less than I was expecting, Very simmilar to my 686. I think I'll be happy with my M&Pc 40.

 

[Jeff1000]

Absolutly to each thier own. I'm not trying to convience anybody what to shoot. I'm new to guns and shooting my self. Within the last eight weeks I have bought a 686+ 4 inch, Marlin .357, Mossberg 500, and just picked up an M&Pc 40 for CCW.

Why did I choose the M&Pc 40. For my state CA, the mag capacity cant be more than 10. That negates many arguments for lower caliber to obtain higher capacity.

Although I have not shot much I have seen the carnage that differnt calibers do, I work as an X-ray technologist in the ER of a trauma center. Granted many of the gang bangers I see might not be trained profiecent shooters and shot placement does count. Still if it's me 5'7 and 160 lbs against three 6 foot plus 300 lbs lbs gang bangers looking to fund thier next drug score I want my 10 shots to count the most.

I have seen many 9mm bullets stoped in the femur or spinal collum. If somebody is druged out they might keep comming at you with a bullet in the femur. On the other hand just last weekend there was a 23 y/o gang banger brought in at 2 am. as soon as I saw the xray I new he was not shot with a 9mm. The right illiac wing of his pelvis was shattered. A 9mm would have ricocheted off the pelvis. Sure enough when they dug the bullet out it was a 40 or 45 cal. He had massive internal bleeding due to the fractured pelvis, Hopefully he died on the OR table. One less BG.

I bought a 9mm barrel and mag for my M&P and plan to shoot 500 rounds of 9mm just to be sure it functions fine. Im not planning to use it for SD, Just wanted the option if I run into a shortage of 40cal.

The best advice I have heard is shoot the largest caliber you can handle. Price maters not when you are protecting the lives of your family. Plus if you shop around the price difference between calibers in negligible. I just bought 3000 rounds of 40cal. Federal 165 grain at $13.50 a box shipped. The 500 rounds of 9mm were only $1.50 a box cheaper.

I cant wait to shoot this gun and get to know what I can do with it. The recoil was less than I was expecting, Very simmilar to my 686. I think I'll be happy with my M&Pc 40.

There's a 10 round mag limit in Massachusetts too.

Along with the 10 round limit, you presented some compelling evidence for going with the bigger caliber.

An M&P40 is on my short list so I'd be interested in hearing your observations. My first purchase is going to be a Remington 870. Is there any reason you chose the Mossberg over the Remington? Thanks.

 

[CrossRifles2008]

I carry 40S&W because I feel it has the best overall Hatcher Rating. It is currently loaded with 180 grain PDX1.

 

[452x6]

RE

I agree with statements previously made regarding shooting the largest caliber you can hit with but I would also add that in the case of a home defense weapon you should select the caliber that the least able person can accurately shoot if multiple family members could be using the weapon. Weapon operational aspects (clearing jams, reloading, etc) should also be considered.

 

[Deacon KC]

Okay, also realize that the 45s reputation as a manstopper and the 9mm's rep as a poor round came about BEFORE the development of reliable jacketed hollowpoint ammo. The 40 came along just at the right time to benefit from the ongoing process. It is either a "compromise" or a "well balanced round" depending on who you talk to. Accuracy will depend on the quality of ammunition, gun and fitting. Today's JHP ammo is so far superior to stuff from the 70s and 80s.

 

[Matt C.]

"LE and the military went to 9mm so women could handle the sidearm."

Disagree with this ^

LE went to a semi auto 9mm replacing the .38 special revolver.
Military made the switch to comply with NATO.

 

[scooter123]

Jeff, you might find this link interesting:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

The author has given permission for it to be redistributed.

You will note the testers had no issues with the round and judged it superior, it was when it got to the rank and file that recoil became an issue, you draw your own conclusions. It also address accuracy etc as well.

Actually this is not true, you should read that report a bit more carefully.

Scroll down to item 6. FBI Action Resulting. You'll see that in A. 1) that the FBI concluded that existing commercial 10mm loadings were too high in pressure and too high in velocity. Then go down to B. 4) you'll see that the FBI developed a load using a 180 gn. bullet at Subsonic velocities.

Note: in rough round numbers the speed of sound at Sea Level is 1100 fps. I think that it's pretty safe to assume that FBI load referenced is the classic FBI loading of a 180 gn. bullet at 1050 fps.

This report clearly documents that the first 10mm loading issued to the line Agents was the classic FBI 10mm, a 180 gn. bullet at 1050 fps. Basically, all that stuff about the 10mm being "too powerful" for femaie and weaker agents is Urban Legend. The truth is that during the initial phase of testing the 10mm that was commercially available proved to be too powerful and those who did the initial tests worked to develop the FBI 10mm before the 10mm was ever issued.

Now, you have every right to call the FBI instructors and scientists who did the initial testing wimp but I won't. The simple truth is that 800 ft.lbs. of muzzle energy is senough to cause problems for almost every handgun shooter. You either have to reduce your rate of fire or accept a distinct loss of accuracy. In Defensive Shooting what is most critical is the rate of accutate fire not hitting once with the most powerful bullet. Because as has been seen over and over and over One Shot Stops are usually the result of a lucky hit.

BTW, if you read deeper into the report and look at the accuracy results you'll see what I believe indicates that the testers were "cooking the books" to favor their 10mm FBI load. Because those results were so far out of line in comparison to the 9mm and 45ACP that it is rather glaring.

 

[StatesRightist]

"LE and the military went to 9mm so women could handle the sidearm."

Disagree with this ^

LE went to a semi auto 9mm replacing the .38 special revolver.
Military made the switch to comply with NATO.

LE went from the .38 after the registered magnums came out, many years before they switched to the 9mm.

As for the military there are a myriad of stories/reasons. I do agree NATO was an important part of the equation.

 

[StatesRightist]

Actually this is not true, you should read that report a bit more carefully.

Scroll down to item 6. FBI Action Resulting. You'll see that in A. 1) that the FBI concluded that existing commercial 10mm loadings were too high in pressure and too high in velocity. Then go down to B. 4) you'll see that the FBI developed a load using a 180 gn. bullet at Subsonic velocities.

Note: in rough round numbers the speed of sound at Sea Level is 1100 fps. I think that it's pretty safe to assume that FBI load referenced is the classic FBI loading of a 180 gn. bullet at 1050 fps.

This report clearly documents that the first 10mm loading issued to the line Agents was the classic FBI 10mm, a 180 gn. bullet at 1050 fps. Basically, all that stuff about the 10mm being "too powerful" for femaie and weaker agents is Urban Legend. The truth is that during the initial phase of testing the 10mm that was commercially available proved to be too powerful and those who did the initial tests worked to develop the FBI 10mm before the 10mm was ever issued.

Now, you have every right to call the FBI instructors and scientists who did the initial testing wimp but I won't. The simple truth is that 800 ft.lbs. of muzzle energy is senough to cause problems for almost every handgun shooter. You either have to reduce your rate of fire or accept a distinct loss of accuracy. In Defensive Shooting what is most critical is the rate of accutate fire not hitting once with the most powerful bullet. Because as has been seen over and over and over One Shot Stops are usually the result of a lucky hit.

BTW, if you read deeper into the report and look at the accuracy results you'll see what I believe indicates that the testers were "cooking the books" to favor their 10mm FBI load. Because those results were so far out of line in comparison to the 9mm and 45ACP that it is rather glaring.

Yes and it says they anticipated no issues with recoil AND the report results showed the 10mm to be the most accurate, regardless of your questions on the results. So you can argue it either way.

I posted the report because there was information both supporting and showing the other side of the 10mm so others could read it and decide what spoke to them, not because I wanted critique and it worked, you drew your own. If I were looking to try to influence someone I would have paraphrased and not attached the link. Thanks.

 

[GetSmith]

There's a 10 round mag limit in Massachusetts too.

Along with the 10 round limit, you presented some compelling evidence for going with the bigger caliber.

An M&P40 is on my short list so I'd be interested in hearing your observations. My first purchase is going to be a Remington 870. Is there any reason you chose the Mossberg over the Remington? Thanks.

Before I decided on the M&P I shot the Berreta PX4 storm which was off the list due to the compact not being CA compliant. Also shot Springfield XD, didn't like the feel of it.

M&P wasn't perfect but offered most of what I wanted. I like the crimson trace option for the M&P. I'm not a fan of rail lasers, I'll put a light on the rail. I'm also upgrading with the Apex Tactical DECAK and trigger kit.

If I was buying new I would have went with the Remington shotgun but a coworker was selling the like new mossberg for $125, I jumped on it.

Only way to know which pistol is right is to shoot several. Personaly I'm proud to say I'm a S&W guy.

 

[BusMaster007]

Sorta SNARKY response...

Starting with, " I don't own a Smith & Wesson; 1911 or Winchester Model 70 ".
IF I DID:
Model 649 ( pre-lock ) .357 Remington Magnum
COLT ( 's ) COMMANDER .45 ACP Royal Blue Steel
Featherweight Classic Stainless w/B.O.S.S. in 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser

THAT being said...
When I first got 'into' guns, my inclination was towards 'pistols'.
I ended up with a Beretta 96 CENTURION in ".40 CAL.", made in Italy.
My next pistol was a Beretta 96 in .40.
After trading off my Beretta Tomcat 3032 in .32 ACP and Model 84FS in ..380 ACP ( I still regret trading that perfect pistol )... for a Mini-Cougar 8040F in .40, I was firmly entrenched in Beretta .40's.

No regrets.
I LOVE THE .40 S&W caliber/cartridge.
Always available on the shelves.
Always hated by some and loved by others.
Good selection of bullet weights and power levels.
Still a handgun cartridge which can lead to a rifle-caliber firearm, if necessary.
NO Handgun cartridge is perfect.
The .40 isn't a compromise, it's what it is, and why I love it.

Working on getting those missing 'niches' in my collection.
Hope you all find what you like and train to use it.
BAM!

 

[125JHP]

So 9mm must be "supergay" then.

No... that would be 38 Super

My opinion is that the debate goes back to Ford v Chevy v Dodge... My choice is better than yours.

 

[Jeff1000]

No... that would be 38 Super

My opinion is that the debate goes back to Ford v Chevy v Dodge... My choice is better than yours.

Not really, the Big 3 all offer V8 engines.

 

[Jeff1000]

Before I decided on the M&P I shot the Berreta PX4 storm which was off the list due to the compact not being CA compliant. Also shot Springfield XD, didn't like the feel of it.

M&P wasn't perfect but offered most of what I wanted. I like the crimson trace option for the M&P. I'm not a fan of rail lasers, I'll put a light on the rail. I'm also upgrading with the Apex Tactical DECAK and trigger kit.

If I was buying new I would have went with the Remington shotgun but a coworker was selling the like new mossberg for $125, I jumped on it.

Only way to know which pistol is right is to shoot several. Personaly I'm proud to say I'm a S&W guy.

Wow, great deal on the Mossberg, congrats! Here's the 590 at 200 yards with 2 3/4" slugs:

Shotgun Slugs at 200 Yards - YouTube

 

[Matt C.]

LE went from the .38 after the registered magnums came out, many years before they switched to the 9mm.

As for the military there are a myriad of stories/reasons. I do agree NATO was an important part of the equation.

Police departments nationwide carried .38 special revolvers longer and with more regularity than reg. magnums. Hell, they're still grandfathered in to veteran officers in Phila. In fact, I know of no big city dept. that primarily issued magnum revolvers for rank and file patrolmen.

 

[Tom Goodrick]

Looking for a Home Defense gun, having experience with 45 ACP, 357 Mag, 9 mm, 380, 32, 22, it was obvious to me that the specs and law enforcement history of the .40 S&W indicated it was the best available. I have owned two .40 S&W for a while now, one a full size S&W .40 M&P and one a smaller Ruger for CC. I am happy and have become reasonably competent with both. I plan to take a short diversion with a .357 Sig barrel in the M&P 40. It is such a low-cost option it would be silly to pass it by. But I expect it will be a novelty.

 

[Fat Old Guy]

Finally and primarily, the larger percentage of officer rounds miss their target . . .

How sad is that?

In the local paper recently, there was a report of the city police being involved in a shoot-out with a suspect. Suspect is dead, six by-standers were wounded. All of the by-standers were hit by errant police bullets.

It occurs to me that those errant bullets could penetrate a by-stander and hit a second by-stander.

 

[brucev]

The tests I read over the winter of pistols in magazines ALL show 40 to be less accurate (group size) than 9 or 45. In your hand, your gun may of course be different.

As to the 'can't do' - can't do what? There is no definitive proof that anyone round has more 'stopping power' than another. Maybe 357 mag has an edge. It depends so much more on accuracy, and the extra velocity of a 9 over a 45 can indeed make a difference in how a HP opens.

Always remember the accuracy triangle (weapon, ammunition, shooter) in any discussion of on target results with a particular caliber. Firing from a mounted test barrel eliminates issues with the shooter, design of weapon, etc. From such testing using a variety of loads one can actually compare on target results of different calibers relative to accuracy.

Similarly such testing with firearms that are as closely equal as possible will establish for those firearms a relative ranking of on target accuracy.

Testing as above but with a individual doing the firing from typical marksman positions will produce a relative result on target as to how well that individual does with a particular ranges of calibers.

As a for instances, this past year I've fired 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP. Unfortunately for the 9mm, the pistol I used was not well suited for accuracy evaluation, so it came in at the bottom of the barrel as far as on target results. The .40 S&W was a G-22RTF which in my hands produced superlative groups out to 15 yds. (10 rounds into 2 inches fired two-handed standing). The .45 ACP was fired from a SA Mil-Spec. 1911 and a S&W 625-2. From the 1911, it produced occasional 2 inch 15 yd. groups, but mostly it was about 2.5 inches. The 625-2 routinely put two cylinder loads into less than 2 inches and would keep 100 rounds into less than 4 inches at 25 yds. But then, we all know that when it comes to any sort of accuracy evaluation, any man firing just about any S&W handgun will produce better that normal results compared to any other handgun ever developed. .

Now... as to stopping power, that is another discussion entirely. I am running low on coffee. And I need time to think. So, I'll just fill up my morning cup... again. And I'll do a little thinking. Cheers to all! Sincerely. brucev.

 

[brucev]

From Federal's web site

.45 GAP, 230 gr Hydra-shok: 880 FPS, 395 ft-lbs
.45 ACP, 230 gr Hydra-shok: 900 FPS, 412 ft-lbs


.45 GAP, 185 gr Hydra-shok: 1090 fps, 488 ft-lbs
.45 ACP, 165 gr Hydra-shok: 1060 fps, 412 ft-lbs

.45 GAP, 230 gr FMJ: 880 fps, 395 ft-lbs
.45 ACP, 230 gr FMJ: 890 fps, 404 ft-lbs

The second one is really comparing apples to pears since the bullet weights are not similar. However, I do not see an advantage to carrying a round named for a pants company.

Please note that I related what the officer told me as to his understanding of the difference between the .45 GAP and the .45 ACP. He did not appear to be someone who was overly concerned with firearms.

 

[brucev]

Once upon a time a coach observed, "You play the way you train! You play the way you train!" Apparently he thought that if in general we trained appropriately with specific attention to each upcoming game/opponent, we'd get better on the field results come game day.

Maybe the problem with a low percentage of hits relative to shots fired by policemen stems from less than ideal training. And... maybe there's more to it. Policemen do not routinely shoot people. Many officers go their entire careers without drawing their weapon except at a range. Good for them. Police work is not a game. There is no score to be kept.

In the incident that recently occurred in NYC, some have opined that the policemen did a poor job of hitting the criminal. Oddly, he was hit many times. Maybe they should have just double-tapped him and then stepped back and looked to see if he cooperated by collapsing? Or... maybe under the circumstances they did about the best that could be expected from policemen who do not routinely slap leather and come up shooting at armed criminals at the Empire State building?

Perhaps it is a bit extreme to suppose that in each and ever instance where a police officer must fire his weapon that he will do everything exactly as a magazine pundit supposes is best, etc.