777 crash at SFO

taxifolia

taxifolia

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Just saw 2 great interviews:

1. Debbie Hersman, NTSB Chair:
Deborah Hersman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Assuming she was not not using the obamaprompter, one of the best, most complete briefings I've seen - she touched all the checklist bases - detailed and thorough. She appears to know the business.

2. Todd Curtis, formerly Boeing, now "AirSafe" I think - factual description of possibilities - no judgment.

You pilots know better than me about the debris trail.

I wonder if it was pilot error ????????????
Will be interesting to follow the NTSB investigation.

Fortunately, and surprisingly, so far 2 fatalitiies.
 
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It looks from the photos that the tail actually hit the water area first.

Spectator said it hit and then belly slammed the ground and bounced.

Debris is visible at the beginning of the runway.

Really SHORT of the Runway.
 
I have flown into the SF airport on several occasions. It looks like you're going to land in the water when suddenly an airstrip appears. Didn't they have a crash there several years ago where a plane hit the water taking off? Hopefully everyone will be OK on this one.
 
Looks like pilot error or a major power failure on late finals. All kinds of drag marks up from the water and onto the threshold. The 777 is a big airplane so it has plenty to crumple before the impact gets to the cabin. Even so, two fatalities is a major let off.
 
certainly looks like pilot landed short & tail hit the bank at the water's edge - I have a few possible thoughts from my time as a nav/EWO & sitting through numerous safety briefings

1 - outright pilot error - came in too low.
2 - bird strike close to landing causing one or both engines to lose power.
3 - crew was distracted by an issue such as a warning light & lost situational awareness - flyable aircraft have crashed/flown into mountains worrying about a caution light that was minor
4 - not as likely from the weather report - had a headwind that suddenly shifted causing loss of lift

just my semi-educated ideas looking at that scene
 
Gotta add some anecdotals:

1. Flew Air Canada in '69 from Ottawa to Winnipeg in the dark evening -
When should you be afraid - When the stewardesses have fear on their faces -
They did - plane was violently "rocking" up and down - we were in violent thunderstorm - pilot had to tun back to Ottawa.

2. Once flew into SFO - you don't feel comfortable when your plane is really "shuddering" violently - you think maybe this is it.
It was bad enough that pilot explained - "We don't normaly approach from east".

Here's a funny one for you -
Remember the Nancy Kerrigan / Tanya Harding incident ?
I flew America West right after that from phx to pdx -
Only about 15 souls on that flight - me in 2nd row -
When doors opened at pdx and we de-planed - 3 gray suits came on and stood at door with hands folded in front at waist - I thought "strange" -
We de-planed, and as we walked up ramp we saw numerous news cameras waiting - woman passenger ahead of me said "Must be some one important".

When I got to daughter's and watched PM news - the "some one important" was apparently one of the perps in the affair.
 
taxifolia said:
2. Once flew into SFO - you don't feel comfortable when your plane is really "shuddering" violently - you think maybe this is it.
It was bad enough that pilot explained - "We don't normaly approach from east".
Click to expand...

There are certain weather conditions and approach vectors that can make life "interesting" coming into Las Vegas. I never did get my 5 minutes using a baseball bat on the ATC guy that put us in a hold straight through some Cu-Nim. I was asleep and awoke to find my hands floating in front of me due to negative G.

Then there was the time I was in a light aircraft and the roil off of the Spring Mountain Range caught us as we approached from the North. All of a sudden about 500' of air under the airplane went missing and just about every red light in the cockpit came on.
 
Heard over on Arfcom that there were four pilots in the cockpit - don't know if it's true or not....

3rd hull loss for the 777 and first fatalities since it went into service in 1995. Not bad for the "Lazy B"!
 
Came in at a very high angle of attack and clipped the tail on the breaker barrier.
Most likely: He realized he was coming in to low and short, tried to pull up (possibly stalled)
That's a real short skid from impact to stop.
 
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The news this AM (no idea how true it is) said that they have a safety pilot on board just to keep a second eye on things. Two pilots missed something major on a clear day?

They also said that that the data recorder on the 777 pretty much records every detail and has the most data of any system.

Time will tell, something went wrong and most likely a few mistakes were made. These are not usually single point failures.

I do feel bad for all those involved
 
venomballistics said:
I hear SFO's landing aides went down.
too much dependance upon electronics and not enough old school driving skill
Click to expand...

SFO is a screw up of an airport at the best of times. ANY kind of reduced visibility reduces the place to a single runway as the two big parallel runways are too close together. Missed a flight to the UK because of this "feature".
 
Gunslinger808 said:
Came in at a very high angle of attack and clipped the tail on the breaker barrier.
Most likely: He realized he was coming in to low and short, tried to pull up (possibly stalled)
That's a real short skid from impact to stop.
Click to expand...

This is a no brainer gentlemen, he/she/they failed to maintain flying speed they got low/slow, in short behind the power curve, the attempt to throttle up was to late due to turbine lag, the application of aft stick failed to arrest the high sink rate. This whole deed was allowed to mature between the ears of the occupant of the left front seat.

How we have arrived at a place where such poor airmanship is able to occur at all is called complacency, the management will never throw the keys to Joe and tell him to take her up and get the feel for her. Nobody is allowed to "play" with the airplane, and basic flying skills/judgement atrophy with dis-use. Lots of airline pilots own their own aircraft and play with them, and yes they all fly alike, hand flying an aircraft for a couple of minutes at the beginning and end of each flight won't maintain competency for most of us.

My sincere condolences to all those involved, most especially those who lost their lives, the injured, and the AC, brokenness all around. billy magg
 
It's been interesting to listen to all of the eye witness accounts and then the News media speculating on what went wrong. One "Eye Witness" said the wings were ripped off and it landed upside down...which was not true. Other accounts had differing opinions as well. The news media keeps bringing up the fact that the ILS was not working at the airport. The ILS (Instrument Landing System) is not required for landings in clear weather, which it was there yesterday.

One possibility that comes to my mind is that the cockpit crew failed to set the current altimeter reading, which is provided by the airport, into their altimeter, thus possibly causing an error in their altimeter reading, making them think they were a bit higher than they actually were.

Also, a jet engine has a significant delay between the pilots pushing the throttles forward and the engines responding. Quite different from the old piston engines.
 
I always hated flying into there. Upon banking it looks like the wing will dip into the bay.
 
LVSteve said:
SFO is a screw up of an airport at the best of times. ANY kind of reduced visibility reduces the place to a single runway as the two big parallel runways are too close together. Missed a flight to the UK because of this "feature".
Click to expand...

Actually all airports in urban areas have some of these concerns, just a fact of life, this was NOT a factor at SFO for the accident aircraft as the weather was CAVU. This accident is likely just the failure of the A/C to maintain flying speed, it may be complicated by landing over water which makes it very difficult by the lack of objects to gauge your speed/altitude, making depth perception dicey. This is not the airport, this is the A/C being out of the loop, and not looking all the way down the runway, I nearly landed 50 feet North of our grass strip one night when we were using four roadside flashers as our "runway lights". By focusing on the two closest flashers and failing to look at the two on the far end of the runway, once my check pilot pointed that out, I made three of the prettiest landings I have ever made. This is complicated by a cockpit environment which makes it very difficult for the F/O to tell the Captain, "I have the airplane, Sir!" The two fatalities are likely the two stews in the galley, all very sad, part of the flying business, it does remain a dicey business at times, but overall US airlines are very safe, European airlines equally so.. billy
 
Prayers go out to all injured and killed of course.
News is reporting today at least 2 people now have
been paralyzed in the accident. Must have been a very
violent impact when the front of the plane came down
causing these injuries. Very thankful as many survived
as they did. It will be interesting to hear the final NTSB
account.
I did'nt realize we had as many pilots on this board as we
do. You guys have been giving me a real education on
aircraft and airports/procedures while following this latest
crash. Thanks !!

Chuck
 
I can't speak for all the aviation people on the board but I can say, it didn't matter what airline it was, I always took any crash personally. I always felt that someone, somewhere in the aviation industry let the traveling public down. My sympathies to the families of the two who died and all those who were injured. But also my sympathies to the airline personnel who have to handle the phone calls and everything else. I've been where they are with Delta flight 191 and, because we handled their flights in the U. S., Swissair 111. It's going to be a rough time for a lot of people.

CW
 
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