Grayfox
US Veteran
Its a rifle. If you want to get technical, its a semi-automatic rifle. Nothing more.
Do you like the term "MSR: Modern Sporting Rifle"
- Thread starter Vinney47
- Start date
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2006
- Messages
- 3,530
- Reaction score
- 6,204
I knew my Sharps and Krag were archaic sporting rifles, but I'm not ready to accept that tag for my stainless and laminate Ruger .280.
That said, I can imagine tactical uses for the Ruger, the Krag started life as a military rifle and if I am ever attacked by someone riding a bison, even the Sharps might be put to defensive use, so I suppose "sporting rifle" is not an inappropriate label for the AR family.
That said, I can imagine tactical uses for the Ruger, the Krag started life as a military rifle and if I am ever attacked by someone riding a bison, even the Sharps might be put to defensive use, so I suppose "sporting rifle" is not an inappropriate label for the AR family.
oligoodday
Member
I like the idea "MSR" simply to get these politicians of out backs.
OP
Vinney47
Member
I too want politicians to leave firearms alone, but I just have to question if calling the exact same thing a less aggressive name will have any effect. that sort of thing did work to some degree on other things, for example with people coming into the country illegally - calling them undocumented workers instead of illegal aliens. it's all political bs.
I do think though that the image is more what some people are afraid of, the black scary gun, doesn't matter what you call it.
We can call it whatever we like,but to a non gun person it looks like an M-16.All we can do is explain what it really is.MSR makes nice snowshoes.
DigiRebel
Member
Meh, I call em' semi-automatic rifles.
The first successful semi-automatic weapon was the Mannlicher Model 85 invented in 1885. Semi-automatic weapons are not modern. In fact the Mannlicher Model 85 would truly be considered an antique firearm (its nearly 130 years old).
The MAIN differentiation between the Mannlicher Model 85 and the "modern sporting rifle" is the stock. The first references I can find to a pistol grip on a long arm are from a British Baker Cavalry gun from 1803. So pistol grips are even older than semi-automatic.
Hell even the AR-15 itself isn't "modern" its basic design was invented in 1957 (nearly 60 years ago). The reason the design is so popular is because its ergonomically correct for shooting, and the placement of the pistol grip allows you to balance the weight of a rifle better, making it easier to carry and shoot a firearm with a larger receiver and barrel.
The facts as I see them:
AR style weapons are not modern. (if cars are classics at 20 years, and antique at 25, and the individual parts and functions that make up the AR are all WELL over 100 years old, then the AR is not *MODERN* its easily a classic firearm design by now.)
ARs are not assault rifles.
Assault Weapon is a BS term, like MURDER GUN! meant to evoke an emotional response, not as an accurate reflection of the firearm itself.
Calling an AR or AK style firearm anything other than by their name, or by an accurate description of what they are feeds the nonsense. Modern Sporting Rifle is better than "Evil black kid killer gun" but on the whole playing the grabber's game isn't going to be what wins us this fight.
The first successful semi-automatic weapon was the Mannlicher Model 85 invented in 1885. Semi-automatic weapons are not modern. In fact the Mannlicher Model 85 would truly be considered an antique firearm (its nearly 130 years old).
The MAIN differentiation between the Mannlicher Model 85 and the "modern sporting rifle" is the stock. The first references I can find to a pistol grip on a long arm are from a British Baker Cavalry gun from 1803. So pistol grips are even older than semi-automatic.
Hell even the AR-15 itself isn't "modern" its basic design was invented in 1957 (nearly 60 years ago). The reason the design is so popular is because its ergonomically correct for shooting, and the placement of the pistol grip allows you to balance the weight of a rifle better, making it easier to carry and shoot a firearm with a larger receiver and barrel.
The facts as I see them:
AR style weapons are not modern. (if cars are classics at 20 years, and antique at 25, and the individual parts and functions that make up the AR are all WELL over 100 years old, then the AR is not *MODERN* its easily a classic firearm design by now.)
ARs are not assault rifles.
Assault Weapon is a BS term, like MURDER GUN! meant to evoke an emotional response, not as an accurate reflection of the firearm itself.
Calling an AR or AK style firearm anything other than by their name, or by an accurate description of what they are feeds the nonsense. Modern Sporting Rifle is better than "Evil black kid killer gun" but on the whole playing the grabber's game isn't going to be what wins us this fight.
I agree. The design is not modern. Most people who buy them do so for defensive purposes, plinking, or in the case of LE work related. I just prefer AR15.
hangnoose
Member
WHAT'S IN A NAME?
quick and to the point answer for a change, NO, I do not like the MSR label. IMO it throws too wide a loop, too generic. would that include anything black, plastic, tacticool, military style? would a mall Ninja tricked out Ruger 1022 be a msr? as for hunting with a semi. the film the deer hunter set in my favorite state has a line I like. Diniro holds up a 30-06 round and says "this is this". one shot one kill. I believe in learning the basics from the ground up. learn to get close enough to make the first shot count. NOT, well when I blow the first shot the spray and pray from a 5,10,20,30 round mag should hit something. NOT trying to tell anyone what they should like or hunt/shoot with, just take the time to learn/practice and be proficient with whatever you choose. call it what it is so we know exactly what you are talking about. soon we will be calling guns, the Nerf warm and fuzzy game harvesting tool.
quick and to the point answer for a change, NO, I do not like the MSR label. IMO it throws too wide a loop, too generic. would that include anything black, plastic, tacticool, military style? would a mall Ninja tricked out Ruger 1022 be a msr? as for hunting with a semi. the film the deer hunter set in my favorite state has a line I like. Diniro holds up a 30-06 round and says "this is this". one shot one kill. I believe in learning the basics from the ground up. learn to get close enough to make the first shot count. NOT, well when I blow the first shot the spray and pray from a 5,10,20,30 round mag should hit something. NOT trying to tell anyone what they should like or hunt/shoot with, just take the time to learn/practice and be proficient with whatever you choose. call it what it is so we know exactly what you are talking about. soon we will be calling guns, the Nerf warm and fuzzy game harvesting tool.
I prefer to call them AR-15's. I know the term Modern Sporting Rifle is more politically correct and is meant to somehow soften the public perception of the AR, but the anti-gun crowd isn't going to be fooled by that term, any more than intelligent AR owners are by the incorrect anti-gun term "assault rifle".
Waywatcher
Member
I don't care for it; it is as contrived as "assault weapon." Modern in the name is bound to create future headaches, when the next most modern thing comes out.
I can appreciate both sides of this argument, but don't get it twisted, names are precisely what is going to win this fight. The only reason the gun haters have gotten as far as they have is because they have branded semi automatic rifles as "assault weapons". Say it loud enough and enough times, and you will convince the average person out there that it is in fact just that. And it is for that reason that I believe the moniker "Modern Sporting Rifles" should be adopted by all semi auto owners. And that's another thing... yes most of us own an AR, but the term isn't synonymous. What about the Sig owners, HK owners, Scar owners, and the like. The term describes any and all semi auto rifles. So I say use it, loudly, and as often as possible. Get it out there so that those that don't share our passion will at the very least have a counter to "assault weapon". Just my $.02.
Oh, and although I own plenty of bolt action rifles, when I go hunting these days (hogs and deer mostly) a 6.8 AR-15 goes with me. An AR lower is the modern TC Contender frame. Take advantage of its versatility.
Oh, and although I own plenty of bolt action rifles, when I go hunting these days (hogs and deer mostly) a 6.8 AR-15 goes with me. An AR lower is the modern TC Contender frame. Take advantage of its versatility.
OP
Vinney47
Member
Yeah, that's come up a couple times in the thread now. In my neck of the woods we use MSRP (manufactuers suggested retail price), so MSR is up for grabs as a new acronym/moniker. I don't particularly like it though.
OP
Vinney47
Member
You make some good points. Just to play devils advocate though... I think that if we were able to phase out "assault rifle" with the more-friendly-to-gun-owners "MSR", the gun grabbers would find a way to make MSR a dirty term anyway.
Like it or not, though, I think "assault rifle" is here to stay. It's a class of guns in video games (any of the Call of Duty line) along with "light machine guns" "shotguns" and "sniper rifles". Not that I use video game lingo to make judgement calls or anything, just one piece of evidence that the term has made it's way into pop culture as well as political culture. Heck, a lot of people think the "AR" in "AR-15" (that even we as owners sometimes shorten to simply "AR") stands for assault rifle.
BigCityChief
Member
To me, MSR means Military Supply Route, US Army jargon for "road." I have this crazy notion that AR-15's should be called "AR-15's."
SmokeandSteel
Member
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2013
- Messages
- 15
- Reaction score
- 0
For all intents and purposes, 4 of 5 times, I am using an AR-15 carbine for varmint hunting and plinking. So an MSR is not an inaccurate statement.
You are probably right, and they may indeed "try". But I would wager that Congress would never have been able to pass a Modern Sporting Rifle ban. And the only reason that "assault weapon" is here to stay is because we allow a segment of the population to brand it that way without giving the public an alternative. It is simply too hard to explain to every single non-gun person out there the differences between a semi auto and an "assault weapon". What we have to do is to make the average (and that means not gun savvy) person think - oh, that is just a Modern Sporting Rifle. Had we not given the gun haters 20 years of using "assault weapons", my guess is that video game maker would be just as happy to label them Modern Sporting Rifles in their games.
OP
Vinney47
Member
But there is a huge problem. You can't look at a fully automatic M4 side by side with a carbine length AR-15 and tell the difference. Externally, there might be none except for the settings on the safety switch.
The fight, so to speak, is with the image, I think, and not with the name. A rose by any other name...
In discussions the argument I am now hearing goes something like "My right to not get shot at a movie theater, or a child's right to not get shot at school far outweighs your right to own an assault rifle". While there are many, many holes in that type of statement, the opponent may easily swap in MSR or modern sporting rifle for assault rifle and carry on in their argument.
Even "AR-15" as the term to be known by might not be enough. The question often asked "why do you need an AR-15?" could just as easily be "why do you need a modern sporting rifle?".
The point being, terms are interchangeable. Also, the legislation goes after a specific set of features - like the length of the gun, a folding/collapsible stock, ability to accept "high" (standard for AR-15) capacity magazines and so forth. The legislation may be known as "assault weapons ban" but again, with terms being interchangeable can just as easily be "modern sporting rifle ban".
It's the image and ensuing fear of the black, semi-auto, thirty round mag sticking out the bottom of the gun that we need to change. Heck, putting FDE/forrest green parts all over your gun so it's not all black just might be more helpful than a name change
Last edited:
Similar threads
