Coach: Why am I Shooting Low and Right? (Lefty)

[OpsMgr]

Click HERE for one of my favorite drills. Very effective...

 

[dlcra]

Just shared this with my wife. Her response, "well, maybe she was aiming/shooting at something else".

 

[Llando88]

Just wanted to update this thread with progress to date.

Since my last post, I purchased a FS M&P 9mm, stock #209301.

On 12/08/13, I shot in groups of 5 of Federal 115 FMJ. The stock trigger was gritty and slow/flexy before the break. My average group size was 3.4" at 7 yards.

I purchased and had installed by my LGS an Apex DCAEK and Apex Poly trigger. I also put in a set of Trijicon HD night sights.

The flex in the trigger is gone, and the pistol goes smoothly until I hear the 'click'.

Today, I shot another set of 100 rounds of Federal 115 FMJ. My 'best' groups were, in succession, 2", 1.75", 1.6" and on the last few groups, I had one group of 1.5". So pretty happy with that improvement.

Have had no malfunctions of any kind with the pistol, 240 rounds to date.

 

[lhump1961]

WitHout seeing you shot in person it's tough, but my guess would be you are squeezing with all your fingers on your shooting hand. Concentrate on just moving your trigger finger. The suggestion to dry fire or use snap caps is a great one.

Though to do, but only move the trigger.

TD

Squeezing with all fingers was something I did. What really convinced me of that was the fact that I shot my 7 round 3913TSW and a couple of my snubby revolvers better. With these guns the grips are short and my pinky is under the grip instead of on it which meant there was no grip pressure from the pinky. I took that idea and made sure that when I had all four fingers on a grip that my pinky was relaxed and not gripping too much and PRESTO!...much better across the board! I think I was unconsciously pulling the gun down with an uneven grip...now I have developed a much more even, firm grip and I shoot more consistently. If I feel I need to grip a particular gun firmer than usual I try to make sure it is more with the middle and third finger so as not to pull off target with the pinky.

As a test I hold a full grip gun in shooting position...watch what happens to the sight picture when you quickly squeeze a bit harder with just your pinky...pulls off target easily. Then try the same thing except squeeze a bit harder with just your middle finger...much less effect at least for me. This showed me how important an even grip all the way through the shot can be. JMHO.

 

[Chillock]

Rastoff,

Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge and your practice rules. I have bookmarked these for later to print. Good ideas for everyday practice and for learning a new gun.

And above all of that, is see you are a vet, thank you for your service!

 

[ginzo]

Ditto!

I have pages of printed notes (created word docs) from Rastoff that are in my range bag. I review or reference each page before my 1st shot each time. Keeps me "on target"!!! I even have short cuts on my desktop, just for reference when I dry fire practice at home.

His and a few others input have led to this type of trigger control.
Trigger practice Dry Fire .22 casing - YouTube

Rastoff,

Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge and your practice rules. I have bookmarked these for later to print. Good ideas for everyday practice and for learning a new gun.

And above all of that, is see you are a vet, thank you for your service!

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I worried about my shots consistently hitting low left when shooting the Glock with fixed sights.

Until I got a sight-tool.

I adjusted the sights, and the problem magically went away.

I am a little disappointed that this is post #38. Unless I missed something, everyone else assumed that this rental gun was sighted in correctly for the OP. Why?

There was a lot of excellent advice which would be relevant if the shooter was the source of the problem, but I think that this is the first post to point the most likely answer - the sights are off!

If you have a tight group that isn't where you want it, you have just discovered why some folks buy guns with adjustable sights.

A good instructor can assist in determining whether it's you or the gun, but remember that your first aim is to get the bullets to go where you think you're pointing the gun. If the group is small, chances are all you need to do is to adjust the sights (or buy your own gun).

 

[blujax01]

The best advice I was given was that I should be holding the gun with the large arm muscles, namely my tricep and bicep. As a Lefty, the instructor taught me to push the backstrap with the web of my left (shooting) hand and pull the gun back with the fingers of my right hand wrapped around my left and place my thumbs parallel to the barrel. I feel tension in my left tricep and right bicep (think "Pushme-Pullyou"). There is absolutely no tension in the fingers of my shooting hand. It felt weird at first but my groups immediately tightened up.

 

[hangnoose]

SHOOTING TIPS

NOT being a qualified instructor/ never having seen YOU shoot/ and a believer that NOT every technique is best for ALL, I can only speak for myself. When the size/shape/grips of the gun make me reach for the trigger I tend to shoot right. When I am too close to the trigger I tend to shoot left. When shooting at multiple target some I hit dead on some right and some left. A tip & easy fix I got was to hold the gun more directly in front of my dominant eye & keep both eyes open & keep the front sight in clear focus. When the gun is correctly in front of the dominant eye it feels more natural to have both eyes open & I really don't have to think about it. I don't know about your age or eyesight, but if you have many diff pairs of glasses try them all. I found I shoot significantly better with 1 pair & they ARE NOT my normal ones.

 

[Rastoff]

I am a little disappointed that this is post #38.

I'm gratified that adjusting the sights only came late in the game here.

It's common for people to blame the equipment when things aren't perfect. However, without proper testing technique, it can't be determined if it's the gun or the shooter. So, the first thing to do is eliminate as many variables as possible.

To determine if the sights are off, the gun must be shot from a bench rest. Otherwise it's impossible to know if it's the gun or the shooter. Along with that, the vast majority of inaccuracy problems are due to the shooter.

Then, the distances have to be considered. If accuracy issues are being seen at short distances, 7 yards in this case, adjusting the sights is not going to move the POI 3 or 4 inches.

So, could it be the sights? Absolutely! Could it be a defect in the barrel? Slide? Certainly. But, I'm gratified to be part of a forum that takes a quality, scientific approach to finding the true cause of accuracy issues. In fact, if you look at the whole thread, you'll see that the advice given here has helped the OP dramatically without adjusting the sights. Does that mean the sights are perfect? Certainly not. It just means that most of the readers here have come to the realization that shooting accurately is a lot more than just the sights.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I'm gratified that adjusting the sights only came late in the game here.

I'm not. If the group is small, that is the FIRST thing to check.

It's common for people to blame the equipment when things aren't perfect.

I agree.

However, without proper testing technique, it can't be determined if it's the gun or the shooter. So, the first thing to do is eliminate as many variables as possible.

If the group is small, the first thing to check is the sights.

To determine if the sights are off, the gun must be shot from a bench rest. Otherwise it's impossible to know if it's the gun or the shooter.

Bench rest zero may be different from handheld zero. A known competent shooter is the best test bed, but nothing is ideal, unless the original shooter shoots a small group. If that's the case, the sights are off and should be corrected. After all, if he shoots a small group to POA, what else are you looking for?

Then, the distances have to be considered.

Agreed as you have described, but first things first.

 

[Rastoff]

I'm not. If the group is small, that is the FIRST thing to check.

I disagree. It's not uncommon to be consistent/repeatable, but not accurate. Just because the group is small doesn't mean the gun isn't accurate. It just means the shooter is doing the same thing every time. This is good as it gives a solid platform to work with.

Bench rest zero may be different from handheld zero.

If this is true, then it's the shooter that is making the difference, not the gun.

A known competent shooter is the best test bed, but nothing is ideal, unless the original shooter shoots a small group. If that's the case, the sights are off and should be corrected. After all, if he shoots a small group to POA, what else are you looking for?

No, a bench rest is the only way to determine if it's the gun or the shooter. Yes, a better shooter with better fundamentals will shoot any gun better, but the bench rest is the only way to eliminate the human variables.

Besides, how do you suggest adjusting the sights on an M&P for elevation? A file? Before you answer, consider that this thread is not bringing up a new problem. This has been discussed many times before. The vast majority of those that shoot low left or low right have been corrected through technique rather than adjusting sights.

 

[Llando88]

I am a little disappointed that this is post #38. Unless I missed something, everyone else assumed that this rental gun was sighted in correctly for the OP. Why?

There was a lot of excellent advice which would be relevant if the shooter was the source of the problem, but I think that this is the first post to point the most likely answer - the sights are off!

If you have a tight group that isn't where you want it, you have just discovered why some folks buy guns with adjustable sights.

A good instructor can assist in determining whether it's you or the gun, but remember that your first aim is to get the bullets to go where you think you're pointing the gun. If the group is small, chances are all you need to do is to adjust the sights (or buy your own gun).

I could be wrong, and if so I apologize for assuming, but I think you might have missed the picture in post #35. I covered the '10' with five shots. Same rental pistol. Same ammo. Different technique.

 

[Llando88]

Today's results from an opportunity to shoot at a new range. All from 21', indoor, 50 rounds of 124 FMJ and 40 rounds of Federal 115 FMJ.

Still pushing rounds to the right, but not quite right / low.

 

[Llando88]

Oh, I also wanted to throw in this datapoint. After the trigger and sight job, my gunsmith shot 10 rounds of IMI 124 gr at 10 yards, and got the pattern below to verify the work.

He must be right handed Lolol.

 

[ginzo]

That's getting on it man!!!! That's a small target at 21'. Lot smaller than a torso.

 

[motorcyclejoe]

In all seriousness, the coin is too stable. A penny or dime is just too easy to keep on the gun. It won't show the minor movements that will throw your shot off by a few inches.

When I first read coin, I assumed you were all talking about standing a coin on edge, on top of the slide. I said to myself, guess I'll never learn to shot straight, I couldn't stand a coin on edge on the top of a table. Then when I read dime - I figured OK - we are not talking about the edge - right....

 

[W.E.G.]

To determine if the sights are off when fired from a bench rest, the gun must be shot from a bench rest.

FIFY.

Otherwise, if a natural and strong grip is applied while firing from a usual firing position, and the shots group consistently, but not at the point of aim, the sights should be adjusted to cause the small group to appear at the same point as the sights are aimed.

I am SO fed up with shooters who tell other shooters to utilize some grip or method, that is not natural or comfortable for the shooter, in the "coaches" quest to force the shooter to mold himself around a gun that does not fit him.

Grip strength varies. Hand size varies. Musculature and flexibility varies.

It is absurd to tell people that their utility firearms should shoot to the same point of aim as when those same guns are locked in some sort of vise or braced on some sort of benchrest.

 

[Rastoff]

It is absurd to tell people that their utility firearms should shoot to the same point of aim as when those same guns are locked in some sort of vise or braced on some sort of benchrest.

Why is it absurd to shoot the gun to the POA?

 

[Johnny Dollar]

In all seriousness, the coin is too stable. A penny or dime is just too easy to keep on the gun. It won't show the minor movements that will throw your shot off by a few inches.

Try balancing the coin on top of the front sight instead of the slide.