Shark vs. Man. Man 1; Shark 0

[Texas Star]

Haven't had a shark thread in a while...

Did anyone else see the news report of the fellow in New Zealand who was bitten by a shark a couple of weeks ago? He drove off or killed the shark with his knife. Then, being an M.D., he was able to dress his leg wound on the beach, after which his mates took him to a pub to "recover".

This was a very short TV report, and I didn't see the knife, nor did they name the shark species. But it was an impressive victory for man against shark. I'm sure that antagonism existed even before we became fully human.

I once wrote an article for a knife magazine on knives as a defense against sharks. ("National Knife Magazine", Aprii, 1989) I was able to obtain some statistics from a Navy shark researcher. If anyone is interested, I'll post the percentage of times a knife helped vs. times it may have only angered the attacking shark, to times when no real effect was seen.

My son stabbed a grey reef shark to death when it went after him off of Guam. He shot it with a spear gun first, but had to finish matters with a Katz dive knife. I'd have preferred a Randall Model 16 or a Fallkniven A-1 in synthetic sheath, but the Katz is okay and is what he had.

I suspect that my Gryphon M-30A1 knife would also do well in this role, but will happily probably never have to learn the hard way. It's a Bob Terzuola- designed complete revision of the old M-3 trench knife that was morphed into the M-4 carbine bayonet.

Puma used to make good dive knives, too.

One sad case I encountered involved a teen who tried to use a surplus trench knife to stab a big (20 feet) shark off of California as it attacked a friend. The blade didn't penetrate, and the boy was killed, although the friend and others got the body ashore. I think the victim lost a leg. The young hero got a medal, but I'm sure he'd rather have had his friend alive.

Anyway, I was impressed to see that short news footage of the doctor who repaired his own injury. I wonder if he found a way to file an insurance claim...

Any other entertaining shark stories here?

 

[the ringo kid]

I wonder if a K98 bayonet would do the job? I have one of those with sawtooth back. This one below aint mine though; just looks like it )

 

[Texas Star]

Most bayonets aren't really sharp, and the saw teeth might make the blade drag on entry.

The regular Kar 98 bayonet without teeth might work, if the steel took a good edge. But any bayonet will rust in salt water where the pommel is milled out to attach ittot the rifle. Most bayonets are also not stainless steel.

The Germans made combat knives called kampfmessern that might work better, although, again, not usually made of stainless steel.

I think the Fairbairn commando knife might break. If you look at one carefully, on all but the first model, the blade narrows to enter the guard. You have to look from above or below to see what I mean. And the tips of many broke. Rex Applegate worked with Fairbairn to improve the design, but the war ended with nothing being done. Much later, Applegate designed his own combat knife, which has been made by several companies. Gerber makes a folding spinoff.

I think the best surplus knives would be the M-3 trench knife and the Ka-Bar used by Marines and by the Navy as the MK II. But the steel isn't stainless and the leather handles probably rot in salt water use.

The SOG SEAL 2000 knife passed very rugged trials before being issued to SEAL teams, and the synthetic sheath won't rot or probably, mildew. Several models of Fallkniven knives have also passed rigorous govt. trials both here and in Sweden, and have been approved for purchase by aviation units, and have National Stock Numbers to facilitate official orders. These have rhe optional Certcoated black blades. Fallkniven suggests that divers might prefer the Ceracoated blades in sale water although their blades are of very high grade stainless steels.

My son discovered that one has to SCRUB the blade in fresh water after diving. Just rinsing it under the tap will leave salt deposits that will rust a blade. Of course, oiling the blade is a sound idea. Many divers don't do it, though. Then, they're surprised to see rust!

Most knives sold in dive shops are not really good ones. The public expects hem not to rust,althoough most ivers don't maintain their knives well. So the blades have a lot of chrome in them and not enough carbon to hold a good edge. They're better avoide, except as pry tools. Too many divers use knives to pry. Gary Randall told me that if the diver is more sophisticated than most and will care for his knife, he will grind the edge bevels sharper.

 

[the ringo kid]

I also have one of those other battle knifes. Its more like a steak knife but I thing would do the job. I also have a sharp but ruined Garand bayonet cut down for the Korean war--that one would work.

 

[steveno]

just curious as to why bayonets were not sharpened very much? I see them at gunshows and some of them of would have a tough time cutting through warm butter

 

[the ringo kid]

just curious as to why bayonets were not sharpened very much? I see them at gunshows and some of them of would have a tough time cutting through warm butter

I dont know? but would suspect they would be damaged easier in use?

 

[shouldazagged]

I'm afraid what I took away from the news story was that Kiwis must share the Aussie fondness for beer. Clearly the doc and his mates considered a few pints to have medicinal value.

 

[Texas Star]

I'm afraid what I took away from the news story was that Kiwis must share the Aussie fondness for beer. Clearly the doc and his mates considered a few pints to have medicinal value.

Too right, mate! I know of a South African diver who stabbed a tiger shark off of Hangklip. No report of whether he then had a beer.

An Aussie knifed a Grey Nurse shark that damaged his diving suit and sold meat from it to fishing boats to get money for a new suit. Their Grey Nurse is NOT our Nurse Shark. It is what we call the Sand Tiger and South Africans call the Ragged Tooth Shark. It is a known man-eater. No pub report, but I bet he had a pint or two later.

 

[Texas Star]

I dont know? but would suspect they would be damaged easier in use?

Yeah, in part. Also, it takes longer to grind a good edge and they don't want some clumsy GI chipping a too-sharp edge or the edge being damaged on bone. That could happen while bayoneting a foe through the ribs.

In the Civil Wat, many veteran troops sharpened their swords, but not to a razor edge which would bend on impact when tthe saber struck an enemy with the force of a cavalry horse behind the power of the soldier's arm.

Also, they wanted to avoid injury to soldiers using bayonets in ceremonies. In battle zones, I suspect that individual soldiers or unit armorers did sharpen them. Some US bayonet sheaths contain a hone that automatically sharpens a blade as it's drawn and sheathed. I think the plasrtic sheath for the Navy MK II knife may also do that, although I haven't checked.

I read the memoirs of Viscount Montgomery of Alamein. Lord Montgomery said that when WW I was declared, officers of his regiment were ordered to have their swords sharpened. I suspect the same was true of bayonets.

Finally, bayonets are seldom of stainless steels. A plain carbon steel knife will lose a keen edge just from disuse. The edge microscopically erodes. That's why your hunting knife may get dull if stored between seasons. Stainless edges don't decline that way.

 

[Texas Star]

I wonder if a K98 bayonet would do the job? I have one of those with sawtooth back. This one below aint mine though; just looks like it )
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This WW II Kar 98 bayonet seems NOT to have the saw teeth that I've seen on some WW I German bayonets issued to Pioneer regiments. The saw teeth were ro cut wood, not to inflict more grevious wounds. But some Tommies and GI's probably shot Germans with these bayonets, believing the latter.

If well honed, YES I think this would kill a shark. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it has. A lot of surplus knives and bayonets were used by divers after WW II.

The 15-year-old boy with the trench knife that I mentioned probably hadn't sharpened his knife well. As Gary Randall told me, most divers use their knives to dig and pry. That'll dull an edge. That's why Randall Made Knives grinds their Model 16 Diver's Knife to a thicker edge profile. One can, of course, just use a Model 14 or 15 and have a sharper blade. But you then lose the special diving sheath. I think the answer is to have the shop hone the edge sharper, telling them you'll use the knife as it should be, not as some other kind of tool. I think a short crowbar is indicated for some of the uses to which some subject their dive knives.

 

[Texas Star]

I mentioned writing that shark knife article in 1989. It was published in April. I actually wrote it in late '88, and W.D. Randall lived until Christmas, 1989. So, he was able to tell me that he had one cusromer who stabbed a shark in the stomach with a Model 16. He had the leather wrist thong on his wrist, and the shark took off, towing the diver! He got his wrist free, but lost the knife. He asked for a rot-resistant nylon wrist thong on his replacement knife. He thought he could free his wrist better if it happened again, and the leather rotted in saltwater diving. My Model 16 came with what I think is a parachute cord thong, as have other Randall Made knives. I use a similar thong on a favorite Fallkniven A-1, but use leather thongs on other knives. It holds up well in normal use, not involving diving or use in humid jungles.

 

[Texas Star]

Another bit that I found was in a book by Thomas Helm. He was a pretty well known outdoor adventure author in the late 1950's and '60's.

In, "Shark!", he mentioned owning a special knife with .9 carbon content in the blade. Said it was one of his proudest possessions. It normally held an edge very well, but dulled rapidly if he skinned many sharks with it. Shark hide is composed of dermal denticles on the surface and is tough!

He didn't mention the brand of the knife, but only Randall was a well known supplier of such handcrafted knives ca. 1960, so I asked if Helm's knife was a Randall. W.D. Randall was intrigued and got the book from the Orlando public library. He enjoyed it, but couldn't tell if the knife was one of his. Searching old customer records would take too much time.

Why not ask Helm? I believe that he was dead by then. BTW, Helm was honored for shooting down a Japanese plane during the attack on Pearl Harbor. He was a crew member of a Cataline flying boat then. But he was caught on the ground and used a .30 Springfield 1903 rifle to shoot down the plane!

 

[marvin the martian]

sharks even the score

now man 1, sharks 1

Man killed by shark off southern Australia while spear fishing | Fox News

 

[kwselke]

Back in my scuba diving days I saw many a shark and admired them. Then one day in Truk Lagoon one much bigger than me came in fast out of the blue. At 15 feet our eyes made contact. I screamed holly &%@# into my mouthpiece. The shark turned and vanished back into the blue. We had a mental connection. I knew he could have killed me, he knew I would not taste good. If that shark had hit me, I could not have even grabbed the dinky knife I was carrying. I was at peace with nature after that.

 

[Texas Star]

now man 1, sharks 1

Man killed by shark off southern Australia while spear fishing | Fox News

Oh, thanks. I missed that one. I did know about the other attacks cited in the article. So, in Australia in the past three years, Sharks 8, Man 0). Unfortunately, the shark species wasn't described.

A year or two ago, there was a rash of attacks off the Egyptian resort beaches. I read the excellent article in, "Playboy" about the research that followed. Apparently, one factor may have been that the crew of a ship had dumped sheep carcasses overboard not too far away.

This series of attacks drew the director of the international shark attack file there. An Amercan named George something... Can't think of his last name at the moment. It made the news a lot at the time. The Red Sea has long been known for shark events. I don't think the sheep carcasses were the only cause. But many shark apologists seized on that explanation.

 

[gdnagle]

And my wife wonders why I don't like the ocean. I see a new movie coming from this Sharkadile Kiwi.

 

[mc5aw]

I owned the Ontario Navy Mark III knife and used it for scuba diving. It was an incredibly sharp blade, and very ruggedly built. It did corrode fairly quickly, but was otherwise an excellent knife. My favorite knife is the Boker Applegate with sawtooth spine. I'd fight a shark with it if need be.

 

[ordy]

I don't go in the ocean past my knees. I figure if I go any deeper, all I am is bate. Talk about being out of your element!

 

[Texas Star]

I don't go in the ocean past my knees. I figure if I go any deeper, all I am is bate. Talk about being out of your element!

Bait? Well, yes, to many species. But even in very shallow water, you aren't safe. People fishing for bonefish in the shallows have to look hard for shark and baracuda, and there are sea urchins, and sting rays besides the fish that'll eat you. Don't forget sea snakes, among the most venomous of all reptiles. Actually, I think the Beaked Sea Snake IS the MOST venomous snake of all, drop-for-drop.

Of course, to some, you're not bait. You'd be a full meal....
Bait sounds more like an appetizer.

I liked the way that Ian Fleming described James Bond's dives in his 007 books. Fleming was a diver and surely experienced many of the feelings that he had Bond have.

 

[Fredo Batali]

Bayonets are not sharpened because they're not for cutting, but for stabbing. There's a regulation that prohibits sharpening them. As a an SF medic I wasn't authorized a bayonet because it's an offensive weapon. No problem, I carried a sharp M3 fighting knife

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