625JM reduced mainspring and longer FP?

[Rule3]

I have done many "trigger jobs" on my older Smiths. J, K and N. I have several with Wolff reduced power mainspring (hammer) and rebound springs) I polish the slide and other parts.

On my JM 625 I can not get good ignition (any really) with the Wolff reduced mainspring. I do have a lighter rebound in it.

I called APEX about a longer firing pin. Mine is .490" which is short. They (APEX) said that they loosen the strain screw and then lock tite it in place? I do not agree with that. I was always taught the strain screw should be tight. Nor do I want to wedge a spent primer under the strain screw.
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Anyway, question is, do you think if I get the longer FP (.495") that it will give me ignition with the Wolff reduced main spring? I do not want to puncture primers.
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I do not use Federal Primers nor do I wish to. I have primers and will use Wolf. CCI or Win. If I can not reduce the trigger pull to work with these, then I will leave it.

Thanks for any input

 

[tomcatt51]

Firing pins: .495" long firing pins are a necessity. Either from Apex or from S&W. The latest pins from S&W are .495" and titanium, as were the earlier ones. The junk "short ones" fall in the middle. The .495" S&W titanium pins are my first choice. An advantage to the Apex competition firing pin is the lighter firing pin spring it comes with.

Strain screws: You need one "long enough". The Wolff reduced power spring is fine (and gives a better DA pull than the stock mainspring) even with CCI primers with a long enough strain screw. Because of geometry issues some stock strain screws are not long enough. I use 8-32 socket set screws and loctite them which seems to offend "purists" but allows adjustment and works extremely well. They're also grade 8 so the tips don't mushroom/deform like the stainless S&W strain screws.

 

[Rule3]

So a FP direct from SW customer service? They no longer have the parts list to down load.

"Thank you for calling SW CS support center"....HOLD

Do you get the socket head strain screws locally at a hardware store or whatever?

What does the lighter FP spring do? Does it allow the FP to strike the primer harder? Never was sure on that?

 

[tomcatt51]

So a FP direct from SW customer service?

Do you get the socket head strain screws locally at a hardware store or whatever?

What does the lighter FP spring do? Does it allow the FP to strike the primer harder? Never was sure on that?

Midway or Brownells

Local True Value hardware store. 8-32 socket set screw. 1/2 or 3/8 long. See which works better. 222 Purple Loctite.

A lighter firing pin spring just wastes less of the hammer strike compressing it. All the little things add up.

 

[Rule3]

I had looked at Brownells and they have the Cylinder and Slide. The dimensions given ar different than APEX. C&S gives the OAL which is longer than .492 but they also give just the pin length. I do not know how much leeway is in the notch part?? Midway lists a factry pin but no dimensions?

Unless I am looking in the wrong spot?

Thanks for the help

 

[pfcustom]

rule 3 We have done a lot of Smith action jobs too. Both for carry and competition>
I shoot a 625 in USPSA competition with a 6.5-7 lb double action pull. (I don't know or care what the SA pull is...hammer is bobbed) It functions 99.9% with Federal Primers about 80% with anything else I have tried which includes factory .45 acp.
If your firing pin measures .490 and a "long" one is .495. Sorry, but that ain't going to make a difference. .005 longer-that piece of paper you make notes on is going to measure .008-.010.
8 lbs+ should work well with Federal and Winchester primers. I've never tried Wolf (and don't intend to in any handgun) Used CCI in 9x25 loads sometime ago. They were generally a little hotter than winchesters.
Bottom line if you want a nice DA pull on a 625 it can be done. I use the BANG (Miculek) mainspring with a 11 lb rebound spring. Polish up the internals and I have lightened the hammer some. I tighten the strain screw all the way in, then back it off to where I like the feel of the DA pull. Test fire it...when I'm please with that I measure from the head of the strain screw to the frame. Tighten the strain screw up and measure it again. Then I cut down the strain screw by that amount. Install it completely bottomed out and tight. No need then for loctite.
But, you are going to have to use Federal primers and be sure they are properly seated in you brass.
I hope this helps...

 

[tomcatt51]

I had looked at Brownells and they have the Cylinder and Slide. The dimensions given ar different than APEX. C&S gives the OAL which is longer than .492 but they also give just the pin length. I do not know how much leeway is in the notch part?? Midway lists a factry pin but no dimensions?

The factory S&W stock firing pins I've rcd from Brownell's and Midway recently have been .495".
Firing Pin, MIM, for Frame Mounted Firing Pin : FIRING PIN, MIM, FOR FRAME MOUNTED FIRING PIN | Brownells

Smith & Wesson Firing Pin S&W 10-11 60-9 64-6 65-6 66-5 67-4 332 337

I'd avoid the C&S firing pin.

 

[tomcatt51]

I shoot a 625 in USPSA competition with a 6.5-7 lb double action pull.
8 lbs+ should work well with Federal and Winchester primers.
Tighten the strain screw up... No need then for loctite.

My S&W revolvers set up for Federal primers are run with 5 1/2 lb DA pulls. They'll run in the low 4 lb range but that's too different when switching back and forth with my 7 lb 617 so they stay at 5 1/2.

As to the strain screw, the guys that don't loctite them are the ones who half way thru a match start getting misfires because their strain screw backed out.

 

[Rule3]

Granted, .005 is pretty much nothing for OAL. I do not know if the cut out notch is different on the pins?

BANG (Miculek) springs are just Wolff springs as are Wilson and anybody else. Just renamed.

Putting the reduced mainspring in several of my newer frame mount FP revolvers yields almost no primer indent, so Federals will not fire either.

If my 327TRR8 and 627 PC can fire anything with their lighter triggers the 625 should be able to also.

Need to call Brownells as they do not give any dimensions

Midway does not either and they are out anyway.

I guess I will try the strain screw "Bubba" method

 

[tomcatt51]

Granted, .005 is pretty much nothing for OAL. I do not know if the cut out notch is different on the pins?

BANG (Miculek) springs are just Wolff springs as are Wilson and anybody else. Just renamed.

In practice that .005" is significant. While not connected to the hammer the firing pin doesn't really funtion as an inertial firing pin. A .490" firing might be ok. The .485" - .487" firing pins are definitely a problem. I consider .492" to .495" to be acceptable and throw away anything shorter. For a while we didn't have much choice as all we could get was the short pins other than old stock. Apex came to our rescue with their firing pins then S&W went back to .495" pins.

I have an older Bang spring set. While it may have a Wolff rebound spring the mainspring looks like a recontoured stock mainspring. The difference between a Wolff reduced and standard mainspring is the amount of arch. That's why the reduced power spring can need a longer strain screw, to maintain the correct geometry.

 

[Rule3]

All I was referring to on the springs was that Wolff is the OEM spring maker for almost everyone. SW springs are not made by SW Wilson Combat 1911 springs are not made by Wilson.

I'll try a longer FP, nothing to lose.

Thanks

 

[BlueOvalBandit]

As to the strain screw, the guys that don't loctite them are the ones who half way thru a match start getting misfires because their strain screw backed out.

I don't loctite and I don't have a problem on my game gun. I can run thousands through it and never touch the strain screw. Both male and female sides need to be clean of any oil though so it doesn't work it's way out.

Sent from behind enemy lines using TapaTalk

 

[tomcatt51]

I don't loctite and I don't have a problem on my game gun.

Guess there are exceptions. The stainless strain screws are the worst for loosening. The blued ones stay put better.

The stainless strain screws I seen that have had "thousands through it" without touching the strain screw have usually had the tip so deformed they couldn't turn.

 

[RussB]

check the headspace on the gun before you buy any more parts

 

[pfcustom]

(

Granted, .005 is pretty much nothing for OAL. I do not know if the cut out notch is different on the pins?

BANG (Miculek) springs are just Wolff springs as are Wilson and anybody else. Just renamed.)

Putting the reduced mainspring in several of my newer frame mount FP revolvers yields almost no primer indent, so Federals will not fire either.

If my 327TRR8 and 627 PC can fire anything with their lighter triggers the 625 should be able to also.


Rule 3: I agree with you if your other Smith's are working with the work you have done in the past. Must to be some other problem with your 625.
I have done many 625s for competition. Many other Smiths for carry. 8+ lbs for carry has worked well for us...with customer preference being the bottom line.
You are correct Wolff makes OEM springs for just about everyone. Just like Mecgar make just about everyone's magazines. Bang springs may be produced by Wolff, I honestly don't know...I've used both over the years. Wolff power ribs in carry guns, have always used the bang units in my personal competition revolvers...old dog, don't want to learn new tricks!!! LOL!
Tomcat seems obsessed with OAL of the firing pins. Fine with me, to each his own. So, he says .482-.487 are definitely a problem and he throws them away. Gosh, how many thousands of smith revolvers are out there with problems their owners aren't aware of?
Several years ago moly coated bullets were the new rage. It seemed like unless you were shooting the new moly bullets you could not even hit the target anymore.
But, like you say if a .490 does not dent the primer a .495 ain't either. RussB has a good point (wish I had thought of that Russ!) check the head space/cylinder end shake.
You are also on the right track with checking the retaining notch in the firing pin...also check for burrs in the hole.
8-32 socket head cap screws from the hardware store can be used for strain screws. Here at the shop I put them in the lathe and carefully cut the bottom of the cap flat with a slight round relief on the inner edge...also releave a thread or two for clearance and put a slight bevel on the outer edge of the cap. I also releave a thread or two on the end of the screw after I have determined the OAL I want the use. I'm not exactly sure what tomcatt means by the tips of the strain screws being deformed (mushroomed...and yes they will do that and stainless worse than blued.) so that they could not be turned. All the factory strain screws I have seen the threads do not go all the way to the end.
Please let me/us know what you come up with for a solution.
FWIW all of the JM625 I have worked on had horrible triggers from the factory. Most were pretty gritty feeling.

 

[tomcatt51]

(

Tomcat seems obsessed with OAL of the firing pins. Fine with me, to each his own. So, he says .482-.487 are definitely a problem and he throws them away. Gosh, how many thousands of smith revolvers are out there with problems their owners aren't aware of?

I'm not exactly sure what tomcatt means by the tips of the strain screws being deformed (mushroomed...and yes they will do that and stainless worse than blued.) so that they could not be turned.

Yes I obsess over the length. The first frame mounted firing pins were steel and were .495. Then they became titanium and .495. Then for some "california drop test" issue they became shorter and the ignition problems started. Even with stock springs and strain screws... It was worse when going for light DA pulls.

S&W has gone back to .495 titanium firing pins. If you send in a gun (for any reason) that has a sub .495 firing pin it will be returned with a .495 pin. It won't be mentioned on the paper work. Members here have also confirmed this. Think they do that for no reason?

Stainless strain screw tips deform and or mushroom depending on your definition of the words. They deform (and/or swell) so their tip conforms to the spring. It's no longer flat but angled to match it's contact with the spring. I've seen them so deformed and enlarged (bigger than the thread diameter) they had to filed down in place before they could be unscrewed from the frame.

I've never had the socket set screws I use instead deform. Socket set screws are Grade 8. Their semi pointed tip sits in the Wolff mainsprings' "rib" very nicely...

Headspace on the FMFP guns is pretty much a non-issue. It's established by the extracor hub and they seem very consistent. Endshake should be checked. First thing I do on a new gun is cut the yoke back to accept a .004" enshake bearing. Goes a long way to keep the endshake from growing as it keeps the yoke end from wearing a groove in the cylinder surface down at the bottom of the yoke bore.

Then there's 625-8s that need the chambers reamed etc... the list is fairly long.

 

[Rule3]

I doubt I have a "headspace issue" gun functions fine stock from the factory. I have changed the mainspring and with it, it does not. That indicates my involvement and the spring. I have called Wolff in the past and the techs response is "they work in some and not others"

Against my better judgemnet I loosened the strain screw a bit , The trigger is fine. Actually APEX told me to do that (I found that odd) I was always taught (by a master gunsmith) that was lazy mans way.

My 327R8 went back to the factory twice before it worked correctly, Never said exactly what they did.

Yes, I remember molly bullets! ( the most tenacious stuff ever, near impossible to remove!) now there is some other magic coating out there

 

[Bearbait in NM]

I am still in the process of working out some of the exact issues here with my new 625PC.

As to the firing pins, my late 2013 gun came with a .495 length FP. I also tested the Apex at .510. With the factory ribbed mainspring, I actually found my stock SW fp to be a tad more reliable when when backing out my strain screw, to test weights. I put both fp's on a scale, and found the Apex to weigh approximately twice the weight of the SW fp. Obviously it's the titanium.

I note this, as besides the weight of the pull/fall, their does appear to be some difference between the primer strike with the titanium FP being theoretically driven faster. I think it is the heavy slower v. lighter faster thing going on. The tips on the two fp's also look to be of slightly different shape.

I guess what I am trying to relate/confirm is that there are a lot of variables going on here, and you will just need to test different combinations. And what I am starting to see with my 625PC confirms to me much of what I have read on this forum. Polishing my internals while not noticably reducing the actual trigger/hammer weight greatly changed the feel of the DA pull to the positive for me.

Craig

 

[Rule3]

My 625JM is a Pro series not a PC. As far as I can tell the Pro series just puts a JM's name on it and the grips vs a standard 625.

I actually took the wood grips off as I like rubbers with finger grooves,

Anyway, just changing the rebound spring makes a world of difference.

Apex was out of FP last I looked, I'll just have to try one to be sure.

 

[tomcatt51]

Apex was out of FP last I looked, I'll just have to try one to be sure.

Might try a .495 S&W titanium pin. Links are in post #7. I prefer the S&W pin over the Apex (either version) having used both.

Could try the pin out of your 327R8. Having been "back to the factory twice before it worked correctly" I'll bet it has a .495 pin in it...