On my bucket list: The P-51 Mustang

[shouldazagged]

John, the P-51 may be larger up close than you would have anticipated, but the P-47 "Jug" is enormous for a single-engine, prop-driven aircraft. Looking at one up fairly close I was stunned by the size of that brute.

It performed well in the escort role, but the gun camera film of the Jug attacking ground targets is truly impressive.

Mustang, Thunderbolt, Wildcat, Hellcat, Corsair, all were great fighters. So was the P-38. Even the little P-40 (which is smaller than I would have anticipated until I stood close to one), with all its limitations, did excellent work. To this day I love seeing them fly and listening to the different sounds of their engines. The P-38 just sounds evil.

 

[zzzippper]

If I remember correctly, the German Navy was planning on a war beginning in 1944.

By 1944, they'd pretty much lost it.

I think Hitler promised the navy no war until 1946.

 

[sheepdawg]

Once the Luftwaffe pilots figured out how to fly it, the ME262 was more than a match for the Mustang. Our pilots learned to get them on takeoff or landing, once in the air the kill ration favored the Messerschmitt. There were never more than 200 ME262s operational at one time. It didn't have much of an impact on the war yet pilots like Franz Schall managing to shoot down 12 enemy fighters in the Me 262, 10 of them American P-51 Mustangs.

On the other hand the Mustang was far more reliable, had tremendous range and definitely had an impact on the war not to mention was a downright beautiful aircraft. The Messerschmitt comes in a close second in terms of beauty.

 

[timn8er]

A few years back when I was still living in Tulsa there was a guy that flew out of Wiley Post that had a P-51. Every now & then I would be lucky enough to be walking across the parking lot when he flew overhead. That beautiful bird sounded like a real hot rod!

 

[PALADIN85020]

John,

Why are there swastikas on the rear of the canopy? Did that particular plane have the same number of kills against the Germans?

Andy

Andy, to the best of my knowledge, the plane is painted to replicate the aircraft flown by Lt. Col. C. H. Kinnard during WWII in the European Theater. All I can find out about him is that he was with the 65th Fighter Wing, 4th Fighter Group, 334 Squadron, based at Debden, England. His name is stenciled on the canopy. That's all I know - further research needed. I don't know if those swastikas represent the actual number of his victories. Here's a pic of his name on the canopy.

John

 

[billwill]

Had a buddy out in Montana this summer and he said a group was at the airport with a B-17 and the P-51. IIRC...B17 flights were about $350 and the P-51 was bout $2,000.

WOW...that is a once..in a lifetime flight. If I had it I would sure do it.

 

[PALADIN85020]

Once the Luftwaffe pilots figured out how to fly it, the ME262 was more than a match for the Mustang. Our pilots learned to get them on takeoff or landing, once in the air the kill ration favored the Messerschmitt. There were never more than 200 ME262s operational at one time. It didn't have much of an impact on the war yet pilots like Franz Schall managing to shoot down 12 enemy fighters in the Me 262, 10 of them American P-51 Mustangs.

On the other hand the Mustang was far more reliable, had tremendous range and definitely had an impact on the war not to mention was a downright beautiful aircraft. The Messerschmitt comes in a close second in terms of beauty.

The Me 262s were flying firebombs. They were loaded with fuel, because those jets really sucked gas. Their range was limited because of this, and a bullet through them usually resulted in a ruptured fuel tank and/or a fireball. For the most part, their pilots hated them. The engines had to be wound up or down very slowly and gradually, or one or both of the jets would just choke and quit. Punch it quickly for speed in the air, and there would be no power at the very worst time. Maintenance was a royal pain, as parts were in very short supply; they often had to be cannibalized for parts to keep a reasonable number flying. Takeoffs and landings were very delicate because of the need for a slow windup and wind down. They took a good distance to takeoff and land. It was a good time to hit them, you're right. A lot of German pilots died in those 262 "coffins." Once they built up speed they were vicious, but that speed came at the costs mentioned.

John

 

[PALADIN85020]

Re: OP. From what I've read, the 51 was a fine plane for the purpose to which it was put. The 47... now there was a plane! Seven tons of raw Republic muscle that would punch the lights out of anything up high or down on the deck... and it'd take hits that would turn other planes into scrap and still get it's pilot home alive. One of my church members got jumped when he was in a 47. They shot him to pieces. He said he lived because of the armor and because it had a big motor that never stopped. He landed on the belly because the wheels would not go down. He was real proud that the plane kept flying and that it didn't burn when he got it on the ground.

The "Jug" was air cooled, which contributed mightily to its reliability. The Merlin engine in the Mustangs had a complex liquid cooling system, which if damaged, would spell curtains for the engine very quickly.

John

 

[Big Cholla]

$6,000 Mustangs, Kingman Disposal Depot

John: I was fascinated by airplanes during WW II. I would run outside our house near Las Vegas every time I heard the distinctive sound of a fighter a/c. My Mom kept a scrapbook for me dedicated to WW II fighter a/c. In 1946 she cut from the Las Vegas Review Journal a small article about the US Government Disposal Office in Kingman, AZ offering new (ferry time only) P-51 D Mustangs for the sum of $6,000 each! The article mentioned that the guns were all removed and the gas tanks would be full. I begged my Dad for us to go buy one and store it until I learned to fly. He didn't see any practicality in that. I had that article well into my 20's but then lost track of it. I didn't get my license at 16 like I had planned but waited until I was 21. I don't know what P-51s were selling for by then.

While I based a small a/c at Renton Field near Seattle, my neighbor was rebuilding a P-51 C in the next hanger. He had bought it from being a display at the front gate of some USAF Field in Texas. He didn't pay very much for it. He had a rebuilt engine installed in Texas and then had it ferryed to Renton. He was a Electronic Flight Test Engineer for Boeing. He put a lot of effort into restoration still not being checked out. When it was ready he went to flight school back East and got 5 hours of dual in a T-6 and then 5 hours of dual instruction in a dual seater Mustang. He came back and took his Mustang off and made a very successful first flight. I watched his takeoff and return landing. I went back to Alaska and lost track of him. I heard later that he was doing a lot of demo work at Air Shows. .................... Big Cholla

 

[Eaglestroker]

Gabby Grabeski wrote the book 'Thunderbolt' and for his purposes, air fighting and ground attack, he had no qualms at all about its performance, especially when they added the 'paddle' bladed propeller. The Thunderbolt was a hellation ground attack plane. I saw a documentary one time that was almost comical they way they'd say, "That farmhouse looks suspicious." and blast away. But it was no joke because nearly everything they hit was hiding something that exploded big time. Another feature that Gabby liked was the typical American ability to perform a zoom climb and the Thunderbolt could dive like a rock and pull up into a climb so nobody could catch them from behind.

The P-51 was about the apex of single engine planes, though, and it's not coincidental that they were so sought after to convert into air racers. Anyway, like Chuck Y. said, "It's not the plane, it's the man behind the controls.'

I went to school with Gabreski's grandaughter, and didn't even know it til 10 years later. You just never know who you'll come across!

My grandad was one of those go getters in his younger years and that included his prized Waco for a long time. He never got that ride in a P51 and still talks about how bad he'd like too.

 

[Malpasowildlifer]

"P-51: Cadillac of the sky!"

Anyone remember that line?

 

[sheepdawg]

The Me 262s were flying firebombs. They were loaded with fuel, because those jets really sucked gas. Their range was limited because of this, and a bullet through them usually resulted in a ruptured fuel tank and/or a fireball. For the most part, their pilots hated them.

John

Only the most experienced pilots liked flying it. By the end of the war most of the Luftwaffe aces were dead or captured. A lesser skilled pilot would probably be scared to death of all it's power. Adolf Galland flew one of the first saying that it felt like he was being pushed by angels. Perhaps the Germans that hated it most were the flight mechanics. The jet engines only had a life of between 15 to 20 hours.

Yet with all of it's faults it still is given credit for being the plane that ended the development of the propeller driven fighter.

 

[Edmo]

... I remember these babies flying overhead of my home in Phoenix during WWII when I was kid, along with P-38s. Luke and Williams fields were in the Phoenix area as training venues for pilots who would fly these planes in combat. Both later became Air Force bases in the postwar years. Luke is still operational, but Williams became a civilian air field after closing a number of years ago..

John

I spent a year attending USAF Pilot Training at Williams AFB in 1989. We flew T-37s and T-38s when I went through.

It was a busy year, but I really enjoyed the local area. OBTW, I would also love a "Pony" ride.

Edmo

 

[goldenlight]

Time to rebuild on a Me 262 engines was 12 HOURS.

 

[WhitleyStu]

In 1985 a Catholic high school in Fort Wayne, Indiana was having a fund raiser and one of the items up for bid was a ride in Fort Wayne Air Service's P-51. I asked a couple who was going to the banquet/fundraiser to bid on the ride in the P-51 for me. The ride ended up being auctioned for over $350, but Fort Wayne Air Service said anyone who would donate $280 to the high school could have a ride in their P-51. I took a check to Fort Wayne Air Service the next day and waited till they called to set up a time to get a ride in the Mustang. Finally the day arrived and I showed up ready with a baggie in my jacket pocket in case my stomach couldn't take the rigors of flying in the war bird. Once I was seated in the small rear seat, which was the radio compartment back when the plane was new, I began to understand what those pilots in WWII were feeling. When the pilot started the engine the wing tips were flexing up and down as the engine missed and sputtered. When the engine was up to temp the pilot moved the throttle up to where the engine was idling smooth and the plane lunged forward. All you can see from the rear seat is a huge black circle as the prop is at idle. He taxied across the airport and put the nose into the wind and slightly throttled up the engine till the tail was slightly bouncing off the runway. Then all of a sudden he nailed it and off we went. About a minute into the flight I asked him how fast we were going and a crackling voice came back through my headset "About 375." He asked me if I wanted to experience some aerobatics, but I told him I was just fine cursing to the next town and back. He did do a quick and sharp wing tip turn and I was looking right down my shoulder at the town below. He then brought the nose up and put the plane into a steep climb and I couldn't even get my chin up as it was planted tight to my chest. When we reached the top of the climb I was weightless and caught myself trying to hold my body in the seat with both hands. We circled back toward Fort Wayne and soon I was back on the ground. When we were getting out of the cockpit the pilot asked what we paid for the ride and I told him. He said for that kind of money that my wife deserved a ride, too. He strapped her in the rear seat and taxied out to the where the runways crossed and hit the throttle. They were off and up in a steep climb instantly. He asked her if she wanted to do something that her husband didn't want to do and she accepted the offer. He did a couple snap rolls for her then it was back to the airport. It is something we still talk about. The plane was sold several times and sadly it was totally destroyed in a crash in Colorado in 2007. Here is a link to the plane and its history:
North American Aviation P-51 Mustang Registry - A Warbirds Resource Group Site

 

[Texas Star]

I don't put much creedence in anonymous bloggers. But you can find very objective evidence by readind the books of RAF Capt. Eric Brown, who flew all of the captured planes and could compare them to allied planes.

I will also add that the 152 was a high altitude interceptor, meant for fighting the bombers and P-51s at height. Though the Fw-190D was used as airfield defense to protect the Me-262s during take off and landing. Airplanes are often called upon to do things that they were not meant to do. The F-4 Phantom II was originally a Navy fleet defense interceptor.

Brown was a Royal Navy test pilot, not RAF. I have his book, Duels in the Sky. Fascinating.

 

[Rick_A]

A few more airshow pics from 2012:

 

[twobit601]

This one is in a hanger near where I work. They do sell rides for a fee.
WARBIRDS | Mark Huffstutler | SIERRA INDUSTRIES

 

[Stephanie B]

John, the P-51 may be larger up close than you would have anticipated, but the P-47 "Jug" is enormous for a single-engine, prop-driven aircraft.

Have you been up next to a Spad? They're enormous beasts, something like a 13 ton max takeoff weight.

 

[Rusty Shacklford]

a second for Crazy Horse

Hello, I would have to also recommend a visit, or even ride, to/on crazy horse. I lived in the Kissimmee area some years ago and visited the plane. There was/is? a museum/business that builds and maintains aircraft of this era, and were at the beginning stages of an F4U Corsair. My father had worked for Republic before working for Grumman building the F6F, -3 model I think, so I share your interest in aircraft.

Crazy Horse is a converted D model that allows two in the cockpit, has a souped up 2000 hp engine, and makes a distinctive sound. I would be sitting in my "cage" in traffic at the end of the day and this beauty would regularly come swooping over. Plan a trip to Disney and add this "little" trip to the agenda.