F-15 vs. F-16 vs. F-22

[feralmerril]

Lockheed Martin / Boeing, F/A-22 Raptor

The engineers nor pilots wanted my advice. Just wanted me to make sure it was still there tomorrow morning.

 

[427mach1]

By the time Lockheed were done with "development", they had an almost completely different airplane. Check out pictures of the YF-22 and compare them to an operational F-22 and you'll see what I mean.

They should have picked the YF-23 because it was prettier. Spitfire fighter theory; "if it looks right, it probably is right".

Not really that that many differences and they were all improvements and/or refinements due to lessons learned during testing. Pretty is a matter of opinion and I would base my decision on flight test results rather than someone's opinion of appearances.

I can guarantee that, had the YF-23 won the competition, it, too, would have had many changes before reaching production status. That is all part of the prototype process; your first design is completed in a limited time, with limited information and limited testing. You build the best airplane you can at that particular time. That is why it is called a prototype. Once you have won the competition, you continue to refine and improve your design based on things you have learned since designing your prototype. You go into production with the improvements incorporated into your latest, final design.

 

[Rastoff]

I can guarantee that, had the YF-23 won the competition, it, too, would have had many changes before reaching production status.

No aircraft is ever done being updated. We're still doing Operational Testing (OT) on F-16s. We still update the avionics in F-15s. We're still testing new designs for C-130s. It never really ends.

If it did, I'd be out of a job.

 

[LSWC]

F-15 and F-22

Before, during and after the first gulf war I worked on F-15 major frame structures at MD and interfaced with DOD personnel for supply and depot level maintenance support at WR ALC. I had a high regard for the Eagle (especially the Strike Eagle) and felt honored to meet the pilots that came through my facility. Soon after the F-22 was accepted into service I ran into one of the Eagle pilots that I had talked to on several occasions. When I asked about the new comer he told me that one F-22 tied it on with 5 F-15's at the USAF top gun exercise - his version was the F-22 got them all and he was never tagged with radar. He might of given more credit than was due, but I'll bet that thing can fly!

 

[BillyMagg]

Another airplane thread. From 2010 to 2012 I worked for the US government (still do) in Korea. I supervised a group of quality assurance specialists that administered the contract for the depot level maintenance for USAF and USMC PTO aircraft.

Our Government Flight Representative (USAF Major) was an F-15 pilot, his brother is an F-22 pilot. I loved talking flying with "Grunt". He talked a lot about dissimilar aircombat training with the F-16s and F-22s. He told me that the F-15 pilots were taught to fight in the vertical, zooming up and down. F-16 pilots are taught to fight in the horizontal, cutting corners with its superior manuverability. I asked him how the F-22 pilots were taught to fight and he said "Any way they want."

The F-22 plan is to attack at medium rangy, un-seen, and fire Sparrow missiles. The first flight circles back and the next flight does the same. When all Sparrows are exhausted they do the same with Sidewinders. When all missiles are gone they cycle through with guns. Hopefully, not much will be left.

Pardon me if I've posted this before, it is probably my best ever story.

Zipper, you really ought to join me, Air Force Brat, on the Sino Defense Forum... we have a thread on the F-15, F-16, and F-22,
as well as the J-10, J-11, J-11B, J-15, J-16, and the J-20, the Chinese fifth gen delta/canard. While this vs that threads are highly discouraged, you would find yourself with a place of honor, having personal experience working on the F-15. The J-11, 15, and 16 are all Flanker derivatives, for A2A, Carrier, and A2G respectively....

The Viking One Departure was initiated at Lambert St. Louis Int. in order to get the F-15s out the top of the TCA at 10,000 ft directly over the airport. The F-15 has extremely impressive vertical performance having a thrust to weight ration of greater than 1 to 1. Project Streak Eagle took back many time to climb records set by the Russians, interested posters should look up the climb profile dictated in order to win those records back, under "project, "Streak Eagle".

Anyway, I would love to have another US poster with some actual aircraft experience and knowledge, it does at times get a little heated, but by and large people are very respectful of one another. I loved the F-15, always watching the Red/White/Blue demonstrator when I happened to be visiting Scott AFB, where they frequently did touch and goes. I don't know if you remember that bird, but she was a looker in that paint.....

while I read this whole thread, some of the responses are rather "humorous",,,, lots of folks think they are on top of this subject

 

[BillyMagg]

Before, during and after the first gulf war I worked on F-15 major frame structures at MD and interfaced with DOD personnel for supply and depot level maintenance support at WR ALC. I had a high regard for the Eagle (especially the Strike Eagle) and felt honored to meet the pilots that came through my facility. Soon after the F-22 was accepted into service I ran into one of the Eagle pilots that I had talked to on several occasions. When I asked about the new comer he told me that one F-22 tied it on with 5 F-15's at the USAF top gun exercise - his version was the F-22 got them all and he was never tagged with radar. He might of given more credit than was due, but I'll bet that thing can fly!

No, he most certainly did not, I jokingly call the F-22 the "alien bird", you really can't shoot what you can't "lock on", and the F-22 is a very elusive, and very maneuverable aircraft, due to "stealth", thrust vectoring, and super cruise. The F-22 is able to go 1.6+ mach with-out engaging afterburner. While there are aircraft that are faster, no one else has the ability to stay fast, for as long, the F-22 can cover a lot of ground, in a very short period of time, at a very reasonable fuel consumption, it has an awesome radar, and is deadly at BVR...... don't sell it short, and yes it is expensive, but so are my old Smith and Wessons.... LOL.

In addition it flys very high, it will maintain 6 gs at 50,000ft, no other aircraft is able to sustain those G forces at that altitude, that gives your A2A weapons a tremendous advantage being launched at high speed at very high altitude, it provides a tremendous tactical advantage. but don't take my word for it, I'm just your friendly neighborhood "local yocal".... billy magg

 

[Harrydale]

the absolute coolest job I ever had was working at McDonnell-Douglas in building 2 where they had two main assembly lines (if I am remembering correctly) one line was the F-18 and one was the F-15. I only worked at Mac for about 2 years. I got canned along with about 200 other toolmakers when Dick Cheny pulled the plug on the A-12. At lunch I used to go out under the "tp's" where some of the Aircraft were parked and climb up a ladder and look in the cockpit. The thing that struck me most was that there was absolutely no "creature comforts" in the cockpit. It wasn't made for comfort in any way, it was all business. Little did I know I had no business being out there and was quite rudely informed of that fact by a very cranky guard one day. We also did work on the Harriarer (sp?) and the T-15. There is nothing, nothing louder than a Marine Corp Jump Jet landing or taking off! Anyway I am proud to have worked there and to have been that close to those magnificent machines.

 

[Rastoff]

When I asked about the new comer he told me that one F-22 tied it on with 5 F-15's at the USAF top gun exercise - his version was the F-22 got them all and he was never tagged with radar. He might of given more credit than was due, but I'll bet that thing can fly!

No, not giving more credit than due. The F-22 really is an amazing product. I've talked with pilots that said they actually had a visual on an F-22, but according to their electronics, they had nothing. Stealth capability isn't perfect, but it's as tremendous an advantage today as radar was in WWII.

 

[LVSteve]

Not really that that many differences and they were all improvements and/or refinements due to lessons learned during testing. Pretty is a matter of opinion and I would base my decision on flight test results rather than someone's opinion of appearances.

I can guarantee that, had the YF-23 won the competition, it, too, would have had many changes before reaching production status. That is all part of the prototype process; your first design is completed in a limited time, with limited information and limited testing. You build the best airplane you can at that particular time. That is why it is called a prototype. Once you have won the competition, you continue to refine and improve your design based on things you have learned since designing your prototype. You go into production with the improvements incorporated into your latest, final design.

I'm afraid I must disagree. The changes between the YF and the production aircraft were fundamental to large parts of the structure. Moving the cockpit is a massive task. Changing the location of the inlets is so fraught with danger I'm surprised the airforce bought into it after the F-111 inlet debacle and the often finicky nature of hi-tech US and Western European powerplants.

The rebore of the fins and the elevators is less intrusive.

 

[JohnHL]

Quote from BillyMagg:
"The Viking One Departure was initiated at Lambert St. Louis Int. in order to get the F-15s out the top of the TCA at 10,000 ft directly over the airport. The F-15 has extremely impressive vertical performance having a thrust to weight ration of greater than 1 to 1. Project Streak Eagle took back many time to climb records set by the Russians, interested posters should look up the climb profile dictated in order to win those records back, under "project, "Streak Eagle"."

From 1976-1996 I was fortunate to work at a motorcycle dealership about a mile south of Lambert St. Louis Int. Air Port, Mcdonnell-Douglas Aircraft Corp., and the Missouri Air National Guard Base.
Many of my customers were "Mac" employees and one (A young engineer named Chris) actually got a ride in an F-15 during a "Viking Ascent" (he showed me the "in-cockpit" commemorative photo).
I can not tell you how many times I saw MoARNG F-4s and later F-15s take off and land (the last leg of the approach, and the turn into the wind to land occurred right above our parking lot).
I also saw and HEARD many "Viking Ascents" by F-15s and F-18s coming off the assembly line for the first time.
It was awe inspiring, but it became quite commonplace.
Another customer of mine was a Mac employee who was involved in static engine tests (I still have a photo he gave me of an F-18 tied down, at full throttle with the "shock diamonds" glistening in the exhaust plumes).
It was an interesting time.

John

 

[feralmerril]

Being a aircraft worker was sort of like picking grapes. When one company was hurting the next got contracts and many times I would see workers greeting new hires and often overhear them say something like weren't you at plant X when I was there back when? I was lucky. I never got laid off in my 35 years but I did work with guards that also worked at other companys. In my case I hired in at just the right time. (1965). When I hired in (Burbank) I estimate there was about 150 to 220 guards. Not one woman guard. I was about the youngest and one of the few that wasnt a retired cop or military. That all changed fast. When I retired in 2,000 I estimate we had about 25 to 30% female and many young guards. Also we had a small number that started out as a guard for movie studios as I did. We even had at least 5 or 6 bit actors.
Due to environmental issues Lockheed closed up the main old original factory in Burbank about 1971 and was moved to the Palmdale plant by the early 70s. All buidings were tore down and the ground was covered in plastic with hazzard warning signs. It was eerie. It looked like a no mans land where once 20 or 30,000 people worked! Must be a lot of ghosts walking around there!

 

[zzzippper]

the absolute coolest job I ever had was working at McDonnell-Douglas in building 2 where they had two main assembly lines (if I am remembering correctly) one line was the F-18 and one was the F-15. I only worked at Mac for about 2 years. I got canned along with about 200 other toolmakers when Dick Cheny pulled the plug on the A-12. At lunch I used to go out under the "tp's" where some of the Aircraft were parked and climb up a ladder and look in the cockpit. The thing that struck me most was that there was absolutely no "creature comforts" in the cockpit. It wasn't made for comfort in any way, it was all business. Little did I know I had no business being out there and was quite rudely informed of that fact by a very cranky guard one day. We also did work on the Harriarer (sp?) and the T-15. There is nothing, nothing louder than a Marine Corp Jump Jet landing or taking off! Anyway I am proud to have worked there and to have been that close to those magnificent machines.

Harry, we were probably working in building 2 at the same time. I worked the center fuselage and final assembly of the F15, right under the big blue McDonnell Douglas sign. I was still there the day they took down that sign and put up the red Boeing sign, very emotional.

 

[zzzippper]

Lockheed Martin really pulled a fast one one the government on the F-22 and F-35. As a "cost savings" they sold the concept of limited production with no true testing phase. This means that before the real problems were identified that too many airplanes have been built and there is zero risk of program cancellation.

By the time the problems were found the government (as well as UK, Canada, and Australia) were "all-in" on these planes.

 

[RonJ]

Watch the second video from the top, labeled F35 Verticle TakeOff Flip. One helluva pilot there! Gives me the shivers.

F-35 Fighter Jet Vertical Take-Off Flip Video

 

[feralmerril]

The tech is hard to keep up with. However I must concede even though I worked at lockheed I seen the British Harrier jump jet do similar somewhere around 15 to 25 years ago at Oshkosh.

Harrier Jump Jet - Ask.com Encyclopedia

 

[Stephanie B]

The F-22 is superior to anything out there, but politics killed it.

$400 million or so a copy also had a little bit to do with it.

 

[Rastoff]

One helluva pilot there! Gives me the shivers.

Yeah, great pilot.

I seen the British Harrier jump jet do similar somewhere around 15 to 25 years ago at Oshkosh.

Yeah, sure you did.

 

[zzzippper]

The F15 was the first aircraft with a greater than 1:1 thrust to weight ratio enabling it to accelerate straight up.

Would I get extra street cred for also working on F18, F16, A10, S3, P3, E2, C130, CH53, H64, AV8, C17, and T45?[2QUOTE=BillyMagg;138076500]Zipper, you really ought to join me, Air Force Brat, on the Sino Defense Forum... we have a thread on the F-15, F-16, and F-22,
as well as the J-10, J-11, J-11B, J-15, J-16, and the J-20, the Chinese fifth gen delta/canard. While this vs that threads are highly discouraged, you would find yourself with a place of honor, having personal experience working on the F-15.

The Viking One Departure was initiated at Lambert St. Louis Int. in order to get the F-15s out the top of the TCA at 10,000 ft directly over the airport.up the climb profile dictated in order to win those records back, under "project, "Streak Eagle".
Anyway, I would love to have another US poster with some actual aircraft experience and knowledge, it does at times get a little heated, but by and large people are very respectful of one another. I loved the F-15, always watching the Red/White/Blue demonstrator when I happened to be visiting Scott AFB, where they frequently did touch and goes. I don't know if you remember that bird, but she was a looker in that paint.....

while I read this whole thread, some of the responses are rather "humorous",,,, lots of folks think they are on top of this subject[/QUOTE]

 

[RonJ]

Yeah, great pilot.

Yeah, sure you did.

Not sure what you mean with the emoticon. He saved himself and a very expensive airplane. No one except you seems to think he caused the aborted vertical take off.

 

[Rastoff]

Not sure what you mean with the emoticon. He saved himself and a very expensive airplane. No one except you seems to think he caused the aborted vertical take off.

Sorry Ron, but I do find it humorous. The "pilot" in that video is probably a teenager. That is a clip from a video game. It's been around for a while now. Even the site you posted tells why is s fake.

In fact, the STOVL version of the F35 hasn't been built yet, let alone flown. Certainly not flown off a carrier. Once it is built, it will require at least a little forward motion to take off. It won't be able to do a straight vertical take off.

Oh yeah, the reason I'm the only one here who thinks that is probably because I'm the only one here who works around the actual F35. Still, a fun video.