Obsolete Cartridge Loading

[LoboGunLeather]

Or you can just order already loaded ammo:

401 WSL Ammo (Winchester Self Loading)|401 WSL Ammo

With this source available I would get my initial supply in the form of loaded ammo, then tool up for reloading (dies, etc).

I've been through several projects to keep some of my antique Winchester and Sharps rifles shooting, including cartridge case conversions. None are easy and none are inexpensive. In this case someone else has already done all the difficult parts, so I would take advantage.

 

[ageingstudent]

I actually found a couple of places that sell the brass for a buck apiece. It seems like that case might hold up pretty well since it isn't a bottleneck and is not super high pressure. I found some spec order dies for 100 bucks. Perhaps a set of dies and 200 pieces of brass would keep my step dad functional. I don't see him shooting more than 1-200 rounds a year with that gun tops. Seems reasonable to expect 8-10 refills on that brass if it starts life new?

 

[ageingstudent]

I did plenty of forming and resizing of rifle cartridges on my 3-hole Lee turret press over the years, the limiting factor is the bench it's mounted to, and how it's mounted. The press itself is a lot stronger than you think!

I think the .401WSL is a neat cartridge, but its limits (and those of the rifle) must be respected. Holt Bodinson did an article on getting one shooting years ago in a Gun Digest annual, but I can't remember which one. As I recall, he got custom .406" bullets to 2000 fps, but his "normal" loads were a good bit tamer, to save wear and tear on the brass and the rifle. He called the 401 his "Blammer" because it has a unique sound signature, and all his hunting buddies knew when he pulled the trigger.

Strength of bench is no issue...mine is quarter-sawn 4X12 old growth fir that is 10 feet long and as clear as Mother Teresa's conscience. I rescued it from an early 1900's building being torn down. If I pushed hard enough I am pretty sure the press or my bones would snap before the bench haha.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I actually found a couple of places that sell the brass for a buck apiece. It seems like that case might hold up pretty well since it isn't a bottleneck and is not super high pressure. I found some spec order dies for 100 bucks. Perhaps a set of dies and 200 pieces of brass would keep my step dad functional. I don't see him shooting more than 1-200 rounds a year with that gun tops. Seems reasonable to expect 8-10 refills on that brass if it starts life new?

Did you check the store I linked to above?
JAMISON INTERNATIONAL BRASS 401 WINCHESTER SELF LOADING UNPRIMED PER 50 ROUNDS
They seem to have a good supply of new brass at just a hair under a dollar a piece...

 

[ageingstudent]

I did I saw that after. Like it!

 

[LoboGunLeather]

I actually found a couple of places that sell the brass for a buck apiece. It seems like that case might hold up pretty well since it isn't a bottleneck and is not super high pressure. I found some spec order dies for 100 bucks. Perhaps a set of dies and 200 pieces of brass would keep my step dad functional. I don't see him shooting more than 1-200 rounds a year with that gun tops. Seems reasonable to expect 8-10 refills on that brass if it starts life new?

Life span of your brass will depend on a number of factors. Nearly all modern (post WW2) brass will be of solid-head construction, while some older brass will be balloon-head (folded case head and rim) which has less inherent strength. Modern brass tends to be heavier in general, thicker heads and case walls, etc.

The .401WSL is a semi-auto so there is less latitude available for reloading. Loads will have to be fairly similar to factory spec to provide proper functioning in the semi-auto, so significantly reduced loads are not an option.

Straight wall case will require full length resizing to assure proper function, so partial resizing or neck resizing are not really an option for the semi-autos. Case necks will have to be flared for bullet seating and crimped after seating, and that is where I would expect the greatest amount of wear to occur due to repeated working of the brass.

I would watch two areas on the cases closely. The case mouths should be closely examined after every resizing, flaring, and crimping to check for cracking of the brass. Case walls just forward of the head (web area) can be checked with a caliper after each resizing (this area is not directly affected by the resizing die operation, but can tend to thicken due to displaced brass, so when case diameter at this area grows significantly over original spec the brass becomes suspect).

With moderate loads I would expect at least 8 to 10 reloads without difficulties. When one case within a batch starts to show problems (excessive case head expansion or mouth cracking) I would consider that entire batch suspect and discard them. When discarding brass I like to smash each with a hammer to prevent reuse by anyone else.

 

[ageingstudent]

Well I found bullets and new brass thanks to folks here, and I found a set of 401 dies that weren't ridiculous in price. I have 2 suggested powders and a surprising amount of load data. Going to go that route for now and save the reforming for a later project. If the stuff gets here from the suppliers without a hitch my step dad will have quite a surprise under the christmas tree. Gotta figure out a way to check the rounds for function in his gun without him knowing. .

Appreciate all the insight.

 

[Big Cholla]

One more route to go: Dr. Ken Howell in his excellent "Designing and Forming CUSTOM CARTRIDGES for rifles and handguns" says all you need is .303 Savage brass and the proper RCBS form die set. Obviously at some point the Savage brass would have to be cut a little long to length and then trimmed to desired length after the forming and resizing. ............ Big Cholla

 

[Nemo288]

I want that book. But KRIKEY! They now want $90 for it @ Amazon? Sheesh.
I need a drink just thinking about that.
Edit: Huntington has it for $60

I might as well take this opportunity to remind the OP to use the absolute minimal bell-mouth when expanding the case.
Make it so the bullet will just get started and holds it's position.

Another cool tip I picked up from re-reading old Handloaders is to use a collet bullet puller
(if you have one) to seat bullets completely straight.
This works.
I have always had a problem getting cast bullets co-axially seated so they don't shave when starting them with my fingers.
This goes hand in hand with the first tip of minimal bell-mouthing.
Especially when I am using bullets bigger than a M die normally mouths for.
Just use the bullet puller backwards to start the bullet in about 1/3 the way and finish seating normally with the die.
This gets the bullets start-seated straighter than you could ever do by hand.

===
Nemo

 

[Qball]

Well I found bullets and new brass thanks to folks here, and I found a set of 401 dies that weren't ridiculous in price. I have 2 suggested powders and a surprising amount of load data. Going to go that route for now and save the reforming for a later project. If the stuff gets here from the suppliers without a hitch my step dad will have quite a surprise under the christmas tree. Gotta figure out a way to check the rounds for function in his gun without him knowing. .

Appreciate all the insight.

Please ad some photos of the Winchester, i got one my self
but as this is your thread
You go first

 

[ageingstudent]

Please ad some photos of the Winchester, i got one my self
but as this is your thread
You go first

I won't be able to get pics till this weekend feel free to post I wanna see

 

[ageingstudent]

Just a quick update to review Buffalo Arms, which is where I ordered a set of .401 WSL Redding dies and some 200 gr bullets...I ordered the stuff Monday morning (10/27/14) and it showed up at 3pm today. I got a shipping E-mail almost as soon as I ordered the stuff. Wow that was fast. It was just shipped Fed Ex ground cheapest nothing fancy. Only coming from Idaho but still a ton faster than I am used to. Just waiting for the brass coming from another place.

 

[ageingstudent]

Please ad some photos of the Winchester, i got one my self
but as this is your thread
You go first

Here is a pic of the old girl. Got all the components to start loading it. Having a little difficulty with the brass/bullet combo as the OAl wants to be 1.976 in order for the mouth of the brass to get in the canelure. Doing some more head scratching and reading.

 

[Qball]

Sweet

Ok, here we go. My gun.

Found a small box of Kynoch rounds, dont know if i should try to fire one of?

 

[ageingstudent]

Wow I heard about propellant in long strands like that but never saw it before. Nice looking old .401. Really neat old guns.

That ammo you have might be worth more as a collectors item. I took one of the oruginal winchester rounds I have apart for bullet measuring etc. The powder was still smelling good and dry. The round I disassembled I have seen online for sale for over 10 bucks each.

 

[Old 44 Guy]

Although I've never owned a 401 I once had a neighbor years ago that worked for the Alaska Railroad. He had a 401 that he shot icicles off the water tower to keep them from braining someone. He did say it wasn't a good bear gun, the 405 Winchester was better.

 

[ageingstudent]

Although I've never owned a 401 I once had a neighbor years ago that worked for the Alaska Railroad. He had a 401 that he shot icicles off the water tower to keep them from braining someone. He did say it wasn't a good bear gun, the 405 Winchester was better.

I think the neatest thing about it is all the history even if it is a bit obscure. I don't think I'd want to take on a bear with it. It might work for black bear but I don't think it's mean enough for anything bigger.

I can see why prison guards and deer hunters would have liked it for closer work though. Even though it's heavy it comes to the shoulder quick and points nice. I haven't shot it yet but from the size and weight of the bolt and slide assembly I am guessing the recoil will be very manageable so second shots should be pretty easy to score.

 

[Jellybean]

...Having a little difficulty with the brass/bullet combo as the OAl wants to be 1.976 in order for the mouth of the brass to get in the canelure. Doing some more head scratching and reading.

Are you having issues with feeding/chambering? My Lyman manuals show a max. COAL as 2.005"

 

[Qball]

I think the neatest thing about it is all the history even if it is a bit obscure. I don't think I'd want to take on a bear with it. It might work for black bear but I don't think it's mean enough for anything bigger.
,

Winchester think's that it was an exelent beargun

 

[2152hq]

I make brass for my 1910 Winchester .401 from 7.62x39mm.
The rim dia is a little smaller than the factory spec 401,,but still gives enough of the semi-rim needed to headspace on.

It can be made from 35 Remington but requires the base right in front of the case rim to be trimmed a bit after forming.
The rim dia is OK,,right on spec w/ factory 401 ammo.

Never tried 30-30, but with the needed rim trimming again, I just find it easier to use the AK cartridge.

I load the rounds (size, decap expand and seat ) on a set of 41 magnum dies.

One extra die is needed to expand the bottleneck out straight on the 7.62x39,,,a tapered expander die.
For that I took an orphaned 45acp expander die,,an RCBS IIRC though it makes no difference. I tapered the blunt 45acp expander plug from .300 at the tip to .410+ at the upper end.
Since it's about .451 to start with,you can see about how much material needs to come off. The plug is soft, at least on the RCBS. Anneal if it isn't.
I did it on a lathe but in roughed out steps. Then smoothed the taper down with a file while spinning and then polished it.
It could just as easily be done with files with the plug spinning in a drill press (if the chuck will accept that dia piece)

The cases are given a spot of lube inside the neck and in one easy motion pushed into the expander die. They open up to .410 at the mouth and are left a bit wasp-waist looking in the center as the .410d of the plug doesn't reach down that far.
Haven't lost one yet in the one step expanding operation dispite warnings to the contrary from internet experts.

I anneal the upper portion of the case after the expaning operation.

Then on to a FL sizing & expanding in the 41 Mag dies.
I don't trim the 7.62x39 cases after expanding. They come out a bit under the 2.00+ trim to length, so I leave them at that.

I use lead 41Magnum pistol bullets still at .410 sized. Seated in the cases after expanding and loading w/4227powder.
The reformed rifle cases won't accept anything close to what the old loading charts list as Max loads because of the heavier const I guess.
A compressed load is given in the max load in the Lyman book I have.

The loaded rounds will have the slight thin waist look the first time but that will fire form and from there out will be a nice round case.
No need for the taper expander die use except to form the case the very first time. Just use the 41Mag dies for loading after that.

The loaded rounds chamber easily, at least in my rifle. I've used both RN and SWC designs.
I would NOT use any Jacketed .410d bullets w/o sizing them back down to .407/.408.
I'll get around to making a sizer die one of these days anyway.

A decent crimp on the bullet keeps things together through the cycling, recoil and handling.
Fun rifle to shoot, accurate and reliable.
Don't loose the magazine, they are terribly hard to find and expensive to buy.