A bad guy can cover 20ft very quickly. Kind of hard to keep everyone out of that circle. I looked up the specs on 2 of my automatics an M&P shield 40 and a Glock 20. Both are double action. This is something I had not thought about before. I always equated double action with a revolver not an automatic. Ask and you shall learn.
Gun misfire in a struggle
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It gave me a pause for thought, who'd intentionally put the muzzle of a gun against their body and pull the trigger?
Not me!
With the chamber empty pull the trigger and you will hear a click. Pull the trigger a second time and see if you hear a click. If there is not a click the gun is not double action. Double action is what the so called experts now call second strike capabilities. Just because a gun has a long hard trigger does not make it a double action. Larry
I also chose a revolver for my carry for the same reason. With most semi autos, it does not take a great deal of pressure on the tip of the slide to push it out of battery. My Glock and S&W M&P both are relatively easily pushed out of battery. I agree that that was probably Wilsons problem
Right or wrong, ATF considers the Glock a double action because pulling the trigger fully cocks the partially cocked striker.
Arik
Member
Unless they grab the hammer.
Bottom line is that no gun is perfect in every situation.
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Here is Wilson's .40 S&W caliber service weapon:
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shouldazagged
Absent Comrade
The solution there is a fully-concealed-hammer gun of the Centennial persuasion. One of the main reasons I chose one to carry.
You're right, no gun can ever be perfectly reliable in every conceivable situation. It just seems to me and a lot of people far more knowledgeable than I am that a concealed-hammer DAO revolver is about as close as it gets.
one eye joe
US Veteran
I CERTAINLY WOULD NOT BET MY LIFE ON IT. IN THE ARMY, THEY USED TO SAY THAT WAS "THE 3RD SAFETY", IN RESPONSE TO THE QUESTION OF HOW MANY SAFETIES WERE ON A 1911, WHEN MOST RECRUITS WOULD ANSWER "TWO--THE MANUAL SAFETY, AND THE GRIP SAFETY". THE DI'S TRICK QUESTION, FOR THAT BLOCK OF INSTRUCTION…….
I CARRIED A FULL SIZE 1911 FOR MANY YEARS AFTER RETURNING FROM 'NAM. IT'S JUST WHAT I HAD GROWN ACCUSTOMED TO. BUT IN MY OLD AGE, I HAVE COME TO FAVOR A SHORT BARRELED REVOLVER FOR A CCW. HARDER TO WRESTLE AWAY FROM ME, AND LESS LIKELY TO MALFUNCTION…….
bgrone
Member
Second strike
I have a 669 DAO Smith; the trigger will cycle the hammer every time it is pulled whether the slide moves or not.
Double action means a full stroke of the trigger does two things: cocks the hammer and drops the hammer.
I have a 669 DAO Smith; the trigger will cycle the hammer every time it is pulled whether the slide moves or not.
Double action means a full stroke of the trigger does two things: cocks the hammer and drops the hammer.
The model number 669 denotes a 2nd generation pistol that was normally made so it fired single action after its first DA shot. While marketing 3rd generation pistols S&W called pistols that functioned that way traditional double action (TDA). The triggers of all generations of TDA S&Ws rock their hammers back from fully forward giving them double strike capability. The 3rd generation TDA equivalent to your 669 was the 6906. Built as a double action only (DAO) it was the 6946 which lacked double strike capability the same as all other 3rd generation pistols that were originally manufactured as DAOs. The slides of 3rd generation DAOs partially cock or stage the hammer for a shorter DA pull. That prevents the hammer from hitting the firing pin again after each shot. Their triggers can not rock their hammers back from fully forward thus they lack second strike capability. The 3rd generation equivalent of a 669 built with a Sig Sauer style decocker on the side of the frame was a 6926. They can be fired from the hammer fully forward position so they have second strike capability. However, to keep the hammer from hitting the firing pin the decocker drops the hammer into a robust version of a half cock notch. The slide stages the hammer into that notch. Consequently, unless their hammer is manually lowered all the way their first shot DA is slightly shorter than a TDA.
I have not read that S&W manufactured 669s as DAOs. However, during the last couple weeks I read a post here that wrote S&W converted some TDAs to DAO in such a way that they retained double strike capability. No details were given. Please describe exactly how your 669 functions.
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To answer the OP’s question, if someone puts their hand(s) on your slide, and doesn’t put it out of battery, it’ll still fire if there’s a round in the chamber assuming your pistol is in working order or you have an ammo problem. However if it does fire, you’re generally only going to get that one shot since body parts, clothing, or less than ideal grip will cause a malfunction for the second shot.
If the slide is moved and goes out of battery, the hammer may or may not fall. If it doesn’t fall it’ll feel like a squishy trigger, but in either case the out of battery situation wouldn’t allow the firing pin/striker to hit the primer. I would argue that if it does, your gun isn’t in proper working order because that means your gun is capable of firing while out of battery.
What happens next depends on your specific weapon and how ‘out of battery’ your slide moved. Once your slide goes back into battery you might just be able to pull the trigger again for it to fire. It’s also just as likely that your pistol might be malfunctioned (i.e. FTE, Double feed, etc…) so you’ll have to perform an immediate action drill to clear the malfunction to fire again.
The arguments regarding why you let someone get to your weapon in the first place or the fact that pressing the weapon into a real body won’t cause an out of battery situation are false. I’ve done ground defense training as an instructor for years with SIM pistols and you can very easily put a gun out of battery as the BG and also just as easily put your own gun out of battery by pushing too hard into a body.
When in a fight it’s amazing the strength both sides can demonstrate when the parasympathetic kicks in. I've actually pushed a gun so hard into someone before that I racked the original round out and chambered a new round.
Semi or revolver, they both have their pros/cons. There is no perfect gun. Some derringer type pistols come close if it’s closed breach with no hammer, but they have their downsides too. It’s most important to know the pros/cons of your gun so you know what those strengths/weaknesses are. It’s also just as important to not get sucked into a false sense of security that somehow you’re more powerful just because you carry a gun. Lots of people, including LEOs, get shot with their own weapons.
With all due respect to the suggestion to put the weapon into your own body…please don’t. If you want to see what happens put your weapon into your mattress, heavy bag, or some other semi-soft surface. Experimenting on yourself shouldn’t be an option.
hangnoose
Member
"EXPERIMENTING ON YOURSELF SHOULD NOT BE AN OPTION"
Unless you are trying to win the Darwin award. In that case have a camera rolling and don't forget to say "HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS", that way the footage can be submitted to the Darwin committee, and U-tube, posthumously of course.
Unless you are trying to win the Darwin award. In that case have a camera rolling and don't forget to say "HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS", that way the footage can be submitted to the Darwin committee, and U-tube, posthumously of course.
Aticus
Member
Before you take me to task about safety READ THE ENTIRE POST. You may find I mention removing the magazine and checking the chamber. Then put the magazine back in the gun and check the chamber again. The only reason for reinserting the magazine is for those guns which will not fire without the magazine in place. I have none that do that but I know there are some owned by members of the forum. Everybody talks about how a semi-auto can be disabled by pressing the muzzle against a trashy's body so I decided to find out how much force it took. It takes a lot of force and will let you know it's being done. The post was an attempt to get the forum to think how much pressure it takes to get the slide far enough out of battery to keep the trigger from releasing the trigger.
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Of course, that is the best case scenario, but things can really get close and bad in a big hurry. How are you going to keep your distance when getting a suspect's ID or looking for signs of drunkenness/ drug use? Those are just a couple of examples.
If Officer Wilson actually heard clicking while stroking the trigger with the slide out of battery, it was almost certainly the trigger hitting the travel stop. It wasn't the hammer. Unless the slide was still in battery and what he heard was the hammer striking something besides the firing pin.
About the force against the body, Officer Wilson didn't have any choice in the issue, the aggressor was supplying the force. From personal experience, once you're pressing the muzzle firmly enough against the aggressor to be CERTAIN the body part isn't yours, the slide has usually retracted enough for the disconnector to operate. Once that happens the trigger isn't operating the hammer/striker. In the case of a stiker fired pistol, the striker should remain in place and reset on the trigger mechanism when the slide returns to battery. It should then fire. Training doctrine suggests that the proper course of action would be an immediate action drill (tap, rack) if possible.
If anyone wants to try this, I'd suggest grasping the slide of a verified unloaded pistol at the rear to move the slide to where the disconnector operates. Then, let the slide go forward and try the trigger again.
Added edit: I tried an M&P9 and when the slide returns to battery, the striker will fire the chambered round. I also know from experience that a third generation (4 digit) S&W TDA will also fire.
About the force against the body, Officer Wilson didn't have any choice in the issue, the aggressor was supplying the force. From personal experience, once you're pressing the muzzle firmly enough against the aggressor to be CERTAIN the body part isn't yours, the slide has usually retracted enough for the disconnector to operate. Once that happens the trigger isn't operating the hammer/striker. In the case of a stiker fired pistol, the striker should remain in place and reset on the trigger mechanism when the slide returns to battery. It should then fire. Training doctrine suggests that the proper course of action would be an immediate action drill (tap, rack) if possible.
If anyone wants to try this, I'd suggest grasping the slide of a verified unloaded pistol at the rear to move the slide to where the disconnector operates. Then, let the slide go forward and try the trigger again.
Added edit: I tried an M&P9 and when the slide returns to battery, the striker will fire the chambered round. I also know from experience that a third generation (4 digit) S&W TDA will also fire.
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hangnoose
Member
PECOS, THAT'S YOUR STORY & YOU'RE STICKING TO IT?
Want to borrow a shovel to dig that hole deeper? LOL. I don't recall you mentioning anywhere to empty the magazine first, not that it really matters, since we NEVER point a weapon at something we don't want to shoot right?, LET ALONE PULL THE TRIGGER when doing so. We all have our moments, LET IT GO, I am.
Want to borrow a shovel to dig that hole deeper? LOL. I don't recall you mentioning anywhere to empty the magazine first, not that it really matters, since we NEVER point a weapon at something we don't want to shoot right?, LET ALONE PULL THE TRIGGER when doing so. We all have our moments, LET IT GO, I am.
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In a SIG P229, like officer Wilson carried, the slide can be pushed back a slight amount (1/16" or so) under very little resistance. When that happens, the cocking rail of the slide keeps the hammer from striking the firing pin. It has to be pushed back even further, under greater resistance, to operate the disconnector. In that in-between region, the trigger will still cock the hammer and drop it in DA and go "click".
On an unloaded SIG Pxxx, drop the hammer, and with the trigger completely depressed, see how little force and short distance the slide needs to move to lift the hammer from the firing pin. You have to push on the hammer at the same time, otherwise it rebounds to a rest position, positively blocked once the trigger is released. HINT: press the front sight or slide below the spring guide against the floor or some solid object, not the barrel itself.
On an unloaded SIG Pxxx, drop the hammer, and with the trigger completely depressed, see how little force and short distance the slide needs to move to lift the hammer from the firing pin. You have to push on the hammer at the same time, otherwise it rebounds to a rest position, positively blocked once the trigger is released. HINT: press the front sight or slide below the spring guide against the floor or some solid object, not the barrel itself.
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Rastoff
US Veteran
OK, I read the whole post, three times at least. Just in case you don't remember, here's the part we have issue with...
Do you see it now? Yes, I know you said to make sure the chamber was empty AFTER you said to cycle the gun to make it ready to fire. Then you told us to press it against our body.
Further down the post you said you're not an instructor. Well, I am an instructor and I can tell you this is poor advice. If you want to see how much pressure it will take to move the barrel/slide back enough to prevent firing, use a wall/pillow/tree/desk anything that is not a person, including yourself!!!
Look, I know what you're trying to do, but it's unnecessary. The situation you describe will never happen to a person who is using a gun for self-defense. Why would you ever jab someone with your gun? If you had it out, why didn't you shoot them? That is why you carry the gun, isn't it? So, forget the subject you're pointing your gun at to do this test, the test itself is unnecessary.
For the record, it will take 12-22lbs of pressure for 99% of the semi-automatic pistols on the market today.
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