629shooter
Member
The "new" bluing doesn't respond well to ammoniated/strong alkaline solvents.
See page 32 of your Safety and Instruction Manual.
Setting the record straight on New Classic S&W M27 & M29 (a futile attempt)...
- Thread starter chrisdobz
- Start date
The "new" bluing doesn't respond well to ammoniated/strong alkaline solvents.
See page 32 of your Safety and Instruction Manual.
muddocktor
Member
My biggest turnoff to the new guns is the lock they put on them, and in a conspicuous place at that. I recently bought a low mileage ( 
) 629 from the early 90's that doesn't have a lock but does have the full endurance package instead of a new one strictly because of the lack of lock and it was also a little cheaper than a new 29 classic. But I won't pass up buying a new gun if they come up with something I would really want. After all, you can ditch the lock and install The Plug in the frame to cover up that eyesore. And if S&W would come out with an 8 shot 27 or 627 with a traditional barrel instead of those slab side eyesores (to me) they are installing on the present models I definitely would buy one brand new. In a 5 - 6 1/2" barrel please, S&W.
) 629 from the early 90's that doesn't have a lock but does have the full endurance package instead of a new one strictly because of the lack of lock and it was also a little cheaper than a new 29 classic. But I won't pass up buying a new gun if they come up with something I would really want. After all, you can ditch the lock and install The Plug in the frame to cover up that eyesore. And if S&W would come out with an 8 shot 27 or 627 with a traditional barrel instead of those slab side eyesores (to me) they are installing on the present models I definitely would buy one brand new. In a 5 - 6 1/2" barrel please, S&W. 
grizz700
Member
All valid points about new technology. New cars are better than old cars. Some of the newer products in the market place are better than what was manufactured in the past. I have handled the new Smiths and while they may have tighter tolerances than those built in the past, I will will choose those Smiths that were built in the 70s and 80s everytime. Why? typically these triggers are smoother, no locks, original cyl release (not the high speed angled version) and the most important reason, I like them. Yes I am nostalgic and will continue to be and I will continue to buy older guns. That also goes for rifles also. Nothing better than a Pre64 winchester no matter what anybody tries to convince me of.
Watchdog
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I'm sorry? What is "x-mass"? Wait...I get it...it's engineer techspeak for Christmas, right? What an incredibly modern world we live in.
I'm happy you young whippersnappers are likin' them new guns. They may be better than the old ones. That's fine and dandy and I'm glad you're buyin' them.
As for me, I buy the ones that were built by old timers like me. Those guns and I come from a different age and attitude about skill, pride, and workmanship.
A bunch of guys and gals spent hours making the best product they could, and us old farts spent what was back then a goodly part of our earnings for what became treasured items that in some cases meant life or death.
You can't put a value on pride of workmanship and work and toil to earn the money to pay for one of those old guns.
The new ones may be higher quality, but there's a difference in one that was made by pushin' buttons on a computer, and one that was shaped and polished by someone who spent their life makin' something that at the end of the day they could say with pride, "I made that one."
As for me, I buy the ones that were built by old timers like me. Those guns and I come from a different age and attitude about skill, pride, and workmanship.
A bunch of guys and gals spent hours making the best product they could, and us old farts spent what was back then a goodly part of our earnings for what became treasured items that in some cases meant life or death.
You can't put a value on pride of workmanship and work and toil to earn the money to pay for one of those old guns.
The new ones may be higher quality, but there's a difference in one that was made by pushin' buttons on a computer, and one that was shaped and polished by someone who spent their life makin' something that at the end of the day they could say with pride, "I made that one."
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girvin02
Member
Having a good bit of machining experience, myself, and having known "old timer's" that were machinist's before the days of computer numerical controlled mills, I have to disagree with your assertion that a gun made on a CNC mill is automatically superior to one made on a manual mill.
Watchdog
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I'm happy you young whippersnappers are likin' them new guns. They may be better than the old ones. That's fine and dandy and I'm glad you're buyin' them.
As for me, I buy the ones that were built by old timers like me. Those guns and I come from a different age and attitude about skill, pride, and workmanship.
A bunch of guys and gals spent hours making the best product they could, and us old farts spent what was back then a goodly part of our earnings for what became treasured items that in some cases meant life of death.
You can't put a value on pride of workmanship and work and toil to earn the money to pay for one of those old guns.
The new ones may be higher quality, but there's a difference in one that was made by pushin' buttons on a computer, and one that was shaped and polished by someone who spent their life makin' something that at the end of the day they could say with pride, "I made that one."
I started to say "You can say that again", but I just did it for you. It bears repeating.
This gets my vote for some kind of Comment of the Month Award.
I'm also an electrical engineer, currently in aerospace. Certainly, I'm keen on new or improved processes and components. However, new approaches can be used to improve performance or reduce cost. Frequently, it's cost that wins that tug-of-war. Performance and at times quality take a back seat to cost.
Engineers are typically overridden by bean counters. This is nothing new; it has been the same for decades. New technology is worthless to a company if it can't make a buck.
Engineers are typically overridden by bean counters. This is nothing new; it has been the same for decades. New technology is worthless to a company if it can't make a buck.
LimaCharlie
US Veteran
I am a retired electrical engineer. I will buy new or old guns to meet my requirements or desires. I prefer my S&W revolvers to be pinned and recessed with firing pins on the hammers and with no locks that can fail. Yes the new ones work, but they have no soul.
While my collecting interest is early N-frames through S-prefix I wouldn't dream of bashing modern N frames, that is, N frames manufactured after 1990. I have several and shoot them often. Let me ask the OP, though, if he has ever examined, handled, or operated a Triplelock .44, a Registered Magnum, a Transition Heavy Duty, a 1950 Model .357 pre-27, or a pre-29 .44 Magnum. I would not pretend that they are better guns from a manufacturing standpoint but they are both beautiful and historic examples of production gunmaking. The 1948 Chevy pickup that my neighbor restored isn't a better truck than my 2500HD Duramax, but it sure looks nice and was state of the art when it rolled off the line during the Truman administration. For me it's an aesthetic appreciation thing. I say enjoy your modern N-frames and appreciate the fact that your Model 27 and Model 29 have a long and distinguished history behind them.
.44HE Military, 2nd Model, shipped December 17, 1939. Check out those pre-war Magnas. Hubba-hubba!
.44HE Military, 2nd Model, shipped December 17, 1939. Check out those pre-war Magnas. Hubba-hubba!
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If you look at the vastly bigger industry of watch manufacturing and collecting, you will see hand made is still superior to CNC machining.There is no comparison to a Swiss label who outsources their case, bracelet,sapphire crystal, dial, hands.crown and stems to a modern Hong Kong CNC house. Compared to a true Swiss hand made watch.Of the many International watch forums that I belong to, the comparison of the two are never considered by the collectors.Only a newbie would compare his Tag to a Maurice Lacroux.
Or if he has ever handled a simple, garden-run, plain vanilla Military & Police revolver (or Model 10) from the 1920s through the 1960s and perhaps later. That's a police-issue gun with no frills produced in the 100,000s, not a fancy magnum. A time when S&W assemblers, were, for all intents and purposes, de facto gunsmiths. I'll stop here.
Kaaskop49
Shield #5103
P.S. Gila Bender: Great post!
I do not disagree the CNC machining and MIM process produces better parts that require less hand fitting. Unfortunately, it is the assembly of those parts into the finished product that has slipped. All the posts you see of revolvers having to be returned to the factory for problems, the barrels that are not installed square up, etc. It is evident that the QC has been loosened up to release a much inferior product, expecting some to be returned but knowing many will never be returned.
While S&W still makes a very good product, and one of the better ones at that, the number of out the door inferior ones is much higher. I hear great comments on how well S&W repairs these and gets them back in the hands of the consumer, but bean counters have determined it is less expensive to fix a few more than have good QC before they leave the factory to start with. It is the same in many other lines of manufacturing. Look what has happened in the auto industry, and the millions of cars being recalled for safety issues. Manufacturers "overlooked" these problems for the sake of profit.
While S&W still makes a very good product, and one of the better ones at that, the number of out the door inferior ones is much higher. I hear great comments on how well S&W repairs these and gets them back in the hands of the consumer, but bean counters have determined it is less expensive to fix a few more than have good QC before they leave the factory to start with. It is the same in many other lines of manufacturing. Look what has happened in the auto industry, and the millions of cars being recalled for safety issues. Manufacturers "overlooked" these problems for the sake of profit.
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I will admit this fact. The CNC produced Guns from the 90's were suprior then the majority of pure **** that left Springfield during the 86/88 time frame.I remember having to search several shops to find guns that were put together right.Barrels that had slight bends and dimples.Charge holes with ridges you could grate chees on. Twisted mainsprings,loose stock studs,cylinders that would bind up when dry firing.sloppy red ramps or almost no red sight material.stock horns that don't fit the frame.This is what led me away to the world of 1911's.
Has the steel that is used in S&W revolvers improved that much over the last fifty years or so? Does anyone know how many of the manufacturing steps for S&W revolvers are automated?
Comparing cars to guns is like comparing apples to lobsters. Cars are, more or less, disposable machines built to obsolesce. Guns, especially the all-steel ones that we here are so fond of, are durable objects. A 1970s era car may be a real PITA to maintain. On the other hand, I have S&W revolvers made in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s that are in excellent shape. Oh, sure, I sent a Model 15 in for repair due to wear, but it likely will not need to be seen again by a gunsmith for wear-related repair in my lifetime.
FWIW, I have a fully functional Krag carbine. It was made by Springfield Armory (the government one, not those Johnny-come-latelies in IL) in 1898. I shot it in a three gun match last year. I will bet heavily that I am, by no means, not the only member here who owns and shoots a functional 19th Century firearm.
As far as I can determine, if you wanted to buy an American car, er, "motor carriage" made that same year, you'll have to find one made by the Duryea Motor Wagon Company, of Springfield, MA.
Comparing cars to guns is like comparing apples to lobsters. Cars are, more or less, disposable machines built to obsolesce. Guns, especially the all-steel ones that we here are so fond of, are durable objects. A 1970s era car may be a real PITA to maintain. On the other hand, I have S&W revolvers made in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s that are in excellent shape. Oh, sure, I sent a Model 15 in for repair due to wear, but it likely will not need to be seen again by a gunsmith for wear-related repair in my lifetime.
FWIW, I have a fully functional Krag carbine. It was made by Springfield Armory (the government one, not those Johnny-come-latelies in IL) in 1898. I shot it in a three gun match last year. I will bet heavily that I am, by no means, not the only member here who owns and shoots a functional 19th Century firearm.
As far as I can determine, if you wanted to buy an American car, er, "motor carriage" made that same year, you'll have to find one made by the Duryea Motor Wagon Company, of Springfield, MA.
I think you can argue that the steel used today is much stronger than in previous decades and the manufacturing process produces a product with tighter tolerances. The inside of a Smith is much smoother than the past, MIM parts are already smoother than you can stone a forged part. But, the quality of the total product often leaves us wanting. Note that grips sent out today on new guns do not fit, never happened in 1930! We have pictures of muzzles that are messed up, ratchets with burrs, barrels not screwed square with the frame, new guns that will not fire due to short firing pins, new guns with hand/ratchet bind, and new guns with poor finish/dings and scratches. Not to mention the change in frame profile due to the lock and frame mounted firing pin.
Yes, today, the Smith firearms COULD be better than ever due to the new materials and manufacturing processes. Wish they were, I would like to buy some.
For now, I will shoot my old ones!
Yes, today, the Smith firearms COULD be better than ever due to the new materials and manufacturing processes. Wish they were, I would like to buy some.
For now, I will shoot my old ones!
JDBoardman
US Veteran
I also am a practicing engineer (mechanical); also in aerospace manufacture and overhaul/refurbishment. My expertise is in repair development engineering; which is largely a one-off, largely manual process. Every time I hear someone espouse the wonders of automation and computerization over 'the old-fashioned manual way of doing things', I am remined of the movie "Westworld", where absolutely nothing can go wrong - tell that to Richard Benjamin's character while he is pursued by Yul Brenner.
Automation has come into widespread acceptance NOT because it makes a better product but because it makes an acceptable product cheaper. It has been industry's response to declining skills and rapidly escalating wages.
Automation has come into widespread acceptance NOT because it makes a better product but because it makes an acceptable product cheaper. It has been industry's response to declining skills and rapidly escalating wages.
IraIII
Member
Technology has indeed progressed, and that is a great thing. Better technology does not necessarily equate to a better product. The machining possibilities that exist today are leaps ahead of anything that existed, or was possible only a few years ago. Metal injection molding can make a part that has extremely close tolerances, and will last for a long time.
Engineers can design machines that are better than anything that would have been possible in past years. Engineers also usually do not have the final say over how the machine is designed. Someone will do a cost benefit analysis of how the individual parts are to designed and built, and this will affect the overall quality. Companies are beholden to the investors, and the bottom line is how much return on our investment. I do not think this is bad, but it needs to be understood.
Automotive engineers get told how big the powertrain package will be when designing the auto. This is due to input from many different engineers, and designers. If the company designs a small car with a lot of interior room, there won't be much real estate left for the powertrain. This may make a "better" automobile, but try to work on the engine, and you will quickly find the problems inherent in this. The same decisions are made in designing firearms, and the result is the Glock phenomenon. Glocks are wonderfully designed, and operating machines, cheap to produce, parts interchangeability, and long term durability, does this make them better yes to some.
Who can argue that a stabilized laminated grip as installed on the newer revolvers are not better?, last a long time, tolerances are tight, don't warp, cheaper to produce. Also who would not argue that a hand made grip fitted to you revolver as made by any of our forum members, are not better, or a Smith&Wesson grip from "the old days" is not better .
Better is a relative term, what is better for me will not be better for you. Just because it is possible to make something "better" does not mean it will be made better. I do think that the new Smith&Wesson products are wonderful shooting machines, I personally find that the older designed products are better for me, but I am older than dirt.
Engineers can design machines that are better than anything that would have been possible in past years. Engineers also usually do not have the final say over how the machine is designed. Someone will do a cost benefit analysis of how the individual parts are to designed and built, and this will affect the overall quality. Companies are beholden to the investors, and the bottom line is how much return on our investment. I do not think this is bad, but it needs to be understood.
Automotive engineers get told how big the powertrain package will be when designing the auto. This is due to input from many different engineers, and designers. If the company designs a small car with a lot of interior room, there won't be much real estate left for the powertrain. This may make a "better" automobile, but try to work on the engine, and you will quickly find the problems inherent in this. The same decisions are made in designing firearms, and the result is the Glock phenomenon. Glocks are wonderfully designed, and operating machines, cheap to produce, parts interchangeability, and long term durability, does this make them better yes to some.
Who can argue that a stabilized laminated grip as installed on the newer revolvers are not better?, last a long time, tolerances are tight, don't warp, cheaper to produce. Also who would not argue that a hand made grip fitted to you revolver as made by any of our forum members, are not better, or a Smith&Wesson grip from "the old days" is not better .
Better is a relative term, what is better for me will not be better for you. Just because it is possible to make something "better" does not mean it will be made better. I do think that the new Smith&Wesson products are wonderful shooting machines, I personally find that the older designed products are better for me, but I am older than dirt.
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Acroyer
Member
Jumping on the New vs Old processes topic; one thing that springs to mind for me is the Japanese katana (I do practice Iaido.) Comparing an old hand-made 1880's folded, differentially tempered katana with a new mono-tempered T10 machined katana might be apt in this case. While both function, one is clearly made with what a person might call artistry, while the other is machined on modern equipment. Which is "better" would depend on who you are talking to. I can say that traditionally made swords range in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, and antique samples can go beyond that, while a newly manufactured T10 blade may go for a couple thousand dollars, tops. I won't even get into the Chinese stamped versions that are cranked out by the millions.
While it may be true in many industries, newer does not automatically mean better. Ikea furniture vs. Amish manufacture, for another example.
While it may be true in many industries, newer does not automatically mean better. Ikea furniture vs. Amish manufacture, for another example.
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