.380 Not Good Defensive Caliber??

[Triathloncoach]

I shot my new LCP on Friday with Remington Hollow Points. If you are on the receiving end of that you have got some serious problems and I like my chances.

 

[Ed Fowler]

Here is one that you definitely can not count on!

Many years ago I got shot in the back with a 22 cal blank at close range.
Burned some holes in my coat and was very loud.

All it did was aggravate me greatly!!!

 

[Deadshot]

To answer your question, like a few others have said. Ask your misinformed friend if he would like to take a round of .380. Truth is ANY well placed round of any caliber is going to take down an attacker. It comes down to your personal preference. If we are talking a military battlefield then sure that's an entirely different conversation. But I don't know anyone who is willing to take a round of any kind. Any round can be a deadly round.

 

[geoff40]

What they said.
Some folks think a .44 Magnum isn't enough gun, using the "what if" logic. I am kind of surprised that by now, there aren't endless debates on wether or not an AR pistol in 5.56 with a couple of extra 30 rounders is enough gun or not.
The .380 was/is the sidearm caliber many police agencies around the globe are issued for daily carry. A lot of bad guys are in the dirt because of the .380s lack of effectiveness. Practice and familiarity are what it's all about.

 

[ClayCow]

Here is one that you definitely can not count on!

Many years ago I got shot in the back with a 22 cal blank at close range.
Burned some holes in my coat and was very loud.

All it did was aggravate me greatly!!!

Can you tell us this story more?

To answer your question, like a few others have said. Ask your misinformed friend if he would like to take a round of .380. Truth is ANY well placed round of any caliber is going to take down an attacker. It comes down to your personal preference. If we are talking a military battlefield then sure that's an entirely different conversation. But I don't know anyone who is willing to take a round of any kind. Any round can be a deadly round.

Battlefield choice is 9mm. The only people complaining are the ones who shoot poorly. It wont get any better with a .45 if they cant hit the target

 

[unclebob]

You said 'Here we go again", I am fairly new to the S&W Forum, so I get the feeling that this topic has probably been discussed multiple times.

What I have seen on these posts is there is a lot of redundant question such as whats my gun worth and stopping power or should or shouldn't I.
Don't be discouraged about asking, generally there are some very knowledgeable people who are willing to share their knowledge and there are also some who get their shorts in a bunch. good luck with your information search..

 

[Ed Fowler]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Fowler View Post
Here is one that you definitely can not count on!

Many years ago I got shot in the back with a 22 cal blank at close range.
Burned some holes in my coat and was very loud.

All it did was aggravate me greatly!!!
Can you tell us this story more?

Menopause time - my woman was seeing a Doc who put her on some hormone that really set her into left field. She was screaming and hollering through some wild excursion into insanity. I put on my hat and coat to leave the house, she resented my action and shot me from behind, center of my back just below my collar.

It was her pistol, she had loaded it - apparently thinking a blank was good for the first cartridge. I was lucky!!

We discussed why it was not nice to shoot me. She did not try it again.

I removed the firing pin from her revolver.

There are those who feel a blank is good as a warning shot - I do not feel that it is a good idea.

 

[tjhodges310]

I personally carry a 380 almost daily. I carry the Shield 9 when I can. I feel very comfortable with my 380 but only because I researched the heck out of my carry round. I would suggest you do the same as I do not feel that all JHP ammo for 380 is created equal. There are a lot of rounds that will not expand due to lack of velocity from shorter barrels. This is due to the fact the engineers designed the rounds for longer barrels (3.5 inches or greater). Shooting from a 2.75 inch barrel can lower the velocities just enough to eliminate the chance of the round expanding. Do your homework!!!

 

[ClayCow]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Fowler View Post
Here is one that you definitely can not count on!

Many years ago I got shot in the back with a 22 cal blank at close range.
Burned some holes in my coat and was very loud.

All it did was aggravate me greatly!!!
Can you tell us this story more?

Menopause time - my woman was seeing a Doc who put her on some hormone that really set her into left field. She was screaming and hollering through some wild excursion into insanity. I put on my hat and coat to leave the house, she resented my action and shot me from behind, center of my back just below my collar.

It was her pistol, she had loaded it - apparently thinking a blank was good for the first cartridge. I was lucky!!

We discussed why it was not nice to shoot me. She did not try it again.

I removed the firing pin from her revolver.

There are those who feel a blank is good as a warning shot - I do not feel that it is a good idea.

Sounds like madness. Wow. Anyways not quite sure shooting a blank at someone would be acceptable, also dont think removing the firing pin is good either, what if she needs it?

 

[tjhodges310]

I've looked a few YouTube videos on .380 ballistic tests. The conclusion of a couple of these tests is that it would be far more effective for defense purposes to use a 'ball' round rather than a hollow point, because the 'ball' penetrates twice as far. Would you agree with this?

I completely DISAGREE with this statement. You need to do more homework. There are some crappy JHP rounds for short barrel 380s and very few good ones. However, the good ones pretty much meet the FBI protocol for penetration (12-18 inches) and actually expand decently as well, even with 4 layers of denim. If you do enough internet research you will find the good ones.

 

[shawn mccarver]

i was talking to a fellow who told me that the 380 was a worthless choice for a defensive round. I think that a larger caliber would probably be better, but a 380 with well placed hits would be a good caliber to conceal carry. What do you think?

Nobody that I know of wants to get shot.

That said, would you rather be shot by a .380 ACP or a premium 9mm bonded hollow point? I think that answers the question.

The point is now moot as there are reliable 9mm pistols that are barely bigger than .380s, and in some cases, the small 9mm is actually smaller than some .380s.

Therefore, unless you are recoil sensitive (and the 9mm has little, even in a Shield or LC9s Pro), then get the 9mm.

The power "floor" was 38 Special J frame and Walther PPK .380 50 years ago. Today, the power floor is still 38 Special in a revolver, but now it is 9mm in a semi-auto.

 

[ClayCow]

I completely DISAGREE with this statement. You need to do more homework. There are some crappy JHP rounds for short barrel 380s and very few good ones. However, the good ones pretty much meet the FBI protocol for penetration (12-18 inches) and actually expand decently as well, even with 4 layers of denim. If you do enough internet research you will find the good ones.

Are we talking levis denim? Or holey abercrombie ones? And who wears 4 layers of denim??

 

[tjhodges310]

Are we talking levis denim? Or holey abercrombie ones? And who wears 4 layers of denim??

Whose body is made out of ballistic gelatin? That's the protocol and some rounds work and others don't. It's an extreme measure.

 

[686-380]

I actually shot 5 rounds of .380, into bare ballistics gelatin. The results were disappointing, somewhat. I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. If you intend to kill the intruder or just dissuade them from their invasion...
http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/407998-380-gel-test-results.html

 

[LostintheOzone]

I have an opinion about the 380. I had an HK model 4 for many years and carried it. I gave it to someone who needed it more than I did. I replaced it with a model 36. Not because I thought the 38 special was better, just because I like revolvers.

I'm in the shot placement camp. 380 is a good defensive cartridge in the hands of someone who can keep their shots inside a pie plate at 10 yards. There is some pretty potent ammo out there these days so all one needs to do is practice shot placement and become proficient with their weapon. I don't know too many people who are going to continue an attack after they have been punched center mass a time or two with a 380.

All you have to do is watch the film of Pres. Reagan being shot by Hinkley. There was a SS agent who was shot in the abdomen with a .22 one time. He went down like someone hit him with a bat and he didn't get up. Once you've been shot a time or two your attitude changes a lot.

If the 380 is such a poor choice why do so many people carry one? The reason is it will punch holes in people. That's why we carry.

 

[BigDaddy7972]

I would respectfully say that the reason most people carry 380's is because they are small and can fit in a pocket. That's it. If I need a gun I want a fighting gun not a little mouse gun that I carry because it's more comfortable. Carrying a gun should be comforting not comfortable. For years we have debated the 9mm vs. the 45. Now we are going to add the 380? Not me.

 

[Protected One]

Carrying a gun should be comforting not comfortable.

At the time when Jeff Cooper made that statement, the choice was one or the other. Today, that is no longer true - it is entirely possible to be both comfortable and comforted. And carrying a .380 doesn't mean being under armed.

 

[Fastbolt]

I would respectfully say that the reason most people carry 380's is because they are small and can fit in a pocket. That's it. If I need a gun I want a fighting gun not a little mouse gun that I carry because it's more comfortable. Carrying a gun should be comforting not comfortable. For years we have debated the 9mm vs. the 45. Now we are going to add the 380? Not me.

I don't disagree with you on any particular point.

I also agree that you're probably quite right that the primary reason a lot of folks choose a diminutive .380 is because it handily slips into a pocket (and hopefully, a pocket holster inside that pocket ). It's the ONLY reason I chose to add a .380 to my retirement CCW collection after so many years. Certainly not for the caliber being "comparable" to my other centerfire handguns.

I grew up reading older lawmen of another era talking about the importance of carrying a "full-size, fighting handgun", so I well remember the mantra of carrying larger handguns. I also remember some of those men talking about the merits of the small .22 LR/Mag kit-guns, or .38 snubs, too. For everything there is a season.

It's more a case that I sometimes suspect that the "comforting, not comfortable" observation may be taken out of context, somewhat. It may become a bit like being distracted by the finger pointing at the moon, instead of actually looking at the moon, itself.

I never really considered it especially comforting when I was carrying my service revolver or pistol while engaged in my daily activities as a cop. It was still just a handgun. I knew cops who died carrying full-size fighting handguns.

For me, "comforting" started at being able to deploy the shotgun. Distance or body armor involved, or a suspect armed with a rifle? Then it would become a rifle/carbine needed to be able to put "comforting" within visual range out there on the horizon.

Only having a full-size revolver or pistol on my hip mostly made me feel I probably wasn't completely defenseless. That's about it.

Comes to that, was I any "better" armed when carrying a .357 Magnum revolver? A hi-cap 9mm? A .40 S&W or .45 ACP?

Just being able to make a fist doesn't mean you're going to be able to have the time to use it, or even be able to effectively use it, or that it'll be enough to use in defense against someone else using their fists (or feet, or a knife, club, etc).

Now, while I certainly grant that a service grade handgun is probably more effectively employed by the average owner/issued user than a smaller handgun, for a range of reasons, that doesn't mean that it's necessarily always the most practical choice for everyone, in every situation.

Situational context has it place within the risk assessment and decision-making paradigm.

I know folks who would take issue (if not umbrage) with my choice to have decided to turn in my issued full-size .45 or double-stack .40 pistols in order to carry a compact .45 (or a single stack 9mm) ... even on a uniform gun belt, if I'd had to don a uniform instead of my plainclothes gear ... but I did it, nonetheless. I did so knowing full well the inherent advantages and disadvantages of each type of handgun involved. I considered those things against my daily working conditions and needs, as well as my training and experience having also been a firearms instructor.

I simply grew to discover, over time, that I didn't like carrying a full-size handgun all day and night, for 10-18 hours a shift. Throw in an all-steel model (4566TSW), and it could literally become a pain in the rear, even with the highest quality holster. Remember, I was working while wearing it, not just walking around, deliberately looking to minimize any potential discomfort.

Ditto for evaluating my daily perceived needs being retired.

I'd always suggest someone consider carrying a larger handgun as a lawfully concealed weapon. They probably shoot it better. There may be a point of diminishing returns involved, though, and each individual may have to make that call for themselves.

For those folks who can make the littler guns run well, and use them in the particular circumstances they envision? Well, it might be a worthwhile risk for them.

We all have to face the possibility of having to live with the consequences of our choices and decisions.

I remember that each and every time I slip that little LCP .380 into a pants pocket, or one of my 5-shot snubs into a larger pocket ... or belt on one of my subcompact, compact or full-size handguns (be it .357, 9, .40, 45 or .44).

I also remember that it's still just a handgun, though, so it's not exactly high on the "comforting" scale, but sometimes "comfortable" does, indeed, become a consideration over which I have some measure of control in my risk assessment and choice process.

Different strokes.

 

[ameridaddy]

I was thinking - Some of you LEO guys correct me if I'm wrong - most street encounters aren't set pieces, but unfold rapidly and unexpectedly for the good guys, and the bad guys are not expecting resistance from anyone not wearing an LE uniform.
They expect fearful, compliant victims.

I had one experience in my youth where I saw the robbery coming in the form of 3 guys closing in and stopped the event with sudden application of fist and feet.

Likewise, we've all seen the Youtube vids where one or more thugs approach a store clerk, a homeowner or a passerby and are sent scurrying on their feet, knees or belly by sudden and violent resistance.
See this old man with a 380 scatter the thugs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWoLGC-n4i4
Point is, while it would be nice to thump the baddie center of mass with a large bore something, it seems to me more often than not, just sudden violent resistance is enough to stop the proceedings. The bad guys are not going to shrug and say, "oh, just a 380, let's continue." More like "HFS, OMG he has a gun and is shooting at us - GTF outtahere."

With that in mind, better to carry what you can shoot well, and are willing to carry all the time, everywhere, than reluctantly go without arms occasionally because it might be inconvenient for that day's activities.
Anyhow, that's why my carry is a 380 - small enough to slip in a pocket for any occasion. I know I will carry it.

Thanks to an earlier poster's recommendation, I'll probably move from my Sig P238 in .380 to a 9mm P938. First I have to try one to see if I can hit with it.

 

[SkipL]

alternate your ammo in the stack fmj then critical protection then fmj fmj etc. that way you will have penetration aka windshields or side window as well as flesh.