thank you for finding the book, can anyone post the picture of it or tell if it shows the sn#... I was told it had been authenticated way back. As for the barrel length I like guns but I have no idea where to measure to, but under the sn# is a hole its exactly 20" to there.
Mod 70 Winchester in 9mm
- Thread starter Tonka
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DWalt
Member
See #20 above regarding barrel length measurement. Also, have you looked at the date stamp on the bottom of the barrel? If you do have, as it appears, a 20" barrel, it very likely did not leave Winchester that way and its value will plummet. Unless the picture in the Madis book is of your Model 70, and can be positively established as such, then it has no bearing on your rifle.
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This doesn't surprise me. A friend has a 1955 in 300 H&H. I'm going by memory, but the roll mark is something like "30 Cal Magnum." No mention of H&H, but at that time I think the only other 30 caliber magnum was the .308 Norma, and Winchester may not have offered it.
Ok...I can't see as good as i used to. I noticed but could barely read (forgive my igorance) on top of the barrel its says "WILLIAMS" and 2 small stamps of somthing can't see on the side. I took more pictures. Did not see anything on the bottom. I understand it could phony. My only thing is what i know is... It did come from a collection of atleast 100 model 70's and it was the most valuable in the collection, that much I think I know. I was told it was authenticated by an expert who said it was 1 of 2 he knew of and the only one he had seen...and published it in some hardback book. Again i know all that means nothing without proof...So next question where do I take it?[/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH]
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The "Williams" refers to a sight company. The small piece of metal fills in the dovetail in which the original rear sight fit. Instead this one has a receiver sight, perhaps made by...Williams? 
It appears to have a carbine-length barrel. Probably the only way you will find out if it is factory original is to have an experienced collector/dealer examine it, and perhaps provide an appraisal. If you can attend, the upcoming Tulsa Arms Show (November 14) would probably find you someone expert in the Winchester arena.
It appears to have a carbine-length barrel. Probably the only way you will find out if it is factory original is to have an experienced collector/dealer examine it, and perhaps provide an appraisal. If you can attend, the upcoming Tulsa Arms Show (November 14) would probably find you someone expert in the Winchester arena.
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You mean those little marks between the numbers mean something
Post #6 gives the barrel length as 19-21". I'm wondering if even the big marks mean anything.
Larry
DWalt
Member
One very important item is to determine if the front sight is integral with the barrel or if it seems to have been attached. If it is in fact a Model 54 carbine length barrel, the sight will be an integral part of the barrel. If not, the barrel has been cut back from 24". Nothing I have seen indicates that Model 54 barrels in 20" length were ever chambered in 9x57mm, but that may not be the absolute truth. Strange that there is no date stamp (2 digits) on the underside of the barrel, as supposedly all of the pre-WWII guns had one. By the way, your SN indicates 1942 production. Not very many civilian guns were made between 1942-45, but a few were.
texmex
Member
Out of concern for you losing sleep while trying to authenticate your Model 70, i'll offer to trade you a Savage Model 340V chambered in the ultra desireable (but discontinued) 225 Winchester. The Burris scope is kind of foggy and the finish on the stock is about 35% with about 10% of the original blue on the barrel and action. I'll even pay the shipping both ways. My youngest boy killed his first deer with that rifle. I had never seen anyone shoot a deer while it was nursing before. That doe he was on jumped ten feet straight up. I wish we had video cameras back then.
This Savage 340 V must be California ok due to its main safety feature (no ammo).
This Savage 340 V must be California ok due to its main safety feature (no ammo).
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^^^ this. A factory 70 in 9mm will bring more than $5k easy.
I've always been intrigued by the very small handful of heavy-barreled target guns they mfg'd in .375 myself.
These rare caliber and configuration M70s are very often faked, upgraded or redone guns. Not saying this one is,,but it's just a fact.
There's a lot of money involved in them,,so the fakefactorys have been in full production for many years.
The integral ramp front sight is one of the first things to look for as stated and a dead give away.
But there was an after-market run of M70 rifle and carbine length bbls done in the 90's to factory specs including roll-stamp markings that are just dead on original Winchester look alikes.
One slip-up they may have made was on the (carbine?) bbls was to use the bbl address marking that was a bit later than the pre-war or War-time era they ended up serial numbering some of their creations.
They also made stocks including SuperGrade and hardware to go with them.
The proof stamps markings were originally hand stamped and done into the completed blued surface. The faked gun if done 'correctly', will have them done this way as well.
If viewed with a magnifier, you should be able to see the stamping has slightly disturbed the blued surface, raised the metal a little and sometimes left a little brite steel showing,
The recv'r is much harder at the front ring than the bbl, so the bbl proof stamp is usually deep and more distinct than the rev'vr proof,,but both were done with the same punch at the same time and by hand & eye allaignment with a hammer. They may be slightly out of line.
Should be a bbl date (two digit) on the bottom of the bbl right up close to the rcvr. That's the date the bbl was made,,not the date the rifle was made. Could be years apart actually.
They did at some point start to leave that off intermitantly,,then all together. I can't remember when that all started.
Caliber marking on the bottom of the bbl was a common pre-war practice also. Small characters stamped just in front of that date marking.
On this carbine on the left side of the recv'r just ahead of the recv'r site, there could be a welded up hole looking back at you thru the blued finish. Perhaps it's just the picture and lighting. I'm just guessing.
I'd check the interior surfaces of the raceway for extra holes/plugged holes not only there, but also the top of the rear rec'vr ring. The adj sight covers it well now, but many early M70s were aftermarket drilled and tapped there for modern scope bases.
The early ones were D&T on the front ring (2) and the left rear side of the rcv'r (2).
The beauty, if you can call it that, for the fakers with these M70's is that there are no factory records.
The factory would accomodate customers demands pretty much anything they wanted. So when presented, a rifle or shotgun that seems a bit out of place by ser# or feature is quickly rationalized by that fact by the seller. 'Uncataloged special order' is often the reasoning.
The buyer should be tone deaf at that point I believe!
Just realize that some of the fakes have been around for 25+yrs already too and have taken on that honest carefully handled look that can make them even more real.
It's sure to get a microscopic going over no matter where it goes up for sale or display.
There's a lot of money involved in them,,so the fakefactorys have been in full production for many years.
The integral ramp front sight is one of the first things to look for as stated and a dead give away.
But there was an after-market run of M70 rifle and carbine length bbls done in the 90's to factory specs including roll-stamp markings that are just dead on original Winchester look alikes.
One slip-up they may have made was on the (carbine?) bbls was to use the bbl address marking that was a bit later than the pre-war or War-time era they ended up serial numbering some of their creations.
They also made stocks including SuperGrade and hardware to go with them.
The proof stamps markings were originally hand stamped and done into the completed blued surface. The faked gun if done 'correctly', will have them done this way as well.
If viewed with a magnifier, you should be able to see the stamping has slightly disturbed the blued surface, raised the metal a little and sometimes left a little brite steel showing,
The recv'r is much harder at the front ring than the bbl, so the bbl proof stamp is usually deep and more distinct than the rev'vr proof,,but both were done with the same punch at the same time and by hand & eye allaignment with a hammer. They may be slightly out of line.
Should be a bbl date (two digit) on the bottom of the bbl right up close to the rcvr. That's the date the bbl was made,,not the date the rifle was made. Could be years apart actually.
They did at some point start to leave that off intermitantly,,then all together. I can't remember when that all started.
Caliber marking on the bottom of the bbl was a common pre-war practice also. Small characters stamped just in front of that date marking.
On this carbine on the left side of the recv'r just ahead of the recv'r site, there could be a welded up hole looking back at you thru the blued finish. Perhaps it's just the picture and lighting. I'm just guessing.
I'd check the interior surfaces of the raceway for extra holes/plugged holes not only there, but also the top of the rear rec'vr ring. The adj sight covers it well now, but many early M70s were aftermarket drilled and tapped there for modern scope bases.
The early ones were D&T on the front ring (2) and the left rear side of the rcv'r (2).
The beauty, if you can call it that, for the fakers with these M70's is that there are no factory records.
The factory would accomodate customers demands pretty much anything they wanted. So when presented, a rifle or shotgun that seems a bit out of place by ser# or feature is quickly rationalized by that fact by the seller. 'Uncataloged special order' is often the reasoning.
The buyer should be tone deaf at that point I believe!
Just realize that some of the fakes have been around for 25+yrs already too and have taken on that honest carefully handled look that can make them even more real.
It's sure to get a microscopic going over no matter where it goes up for sale or display.
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DWalt
Member
The barreled action must be removed from the wood to see the stampings on the bottom of the barrel, as previously stated. As I earlier said, any serious collector of exotic Model 70s would subject it to microscopic scrutiny prior to making an offer. And some of those guys are really dead serious and exceedingly picky. The fact that the front sight seems to be a part of the barrel does indeed remove one possible doubt as to its originality, but there are others. The previous comment about no scope mounting holes on the rear receiver bridge was also earlier mentioned by me. A very large number of earlier Model 70s are found to have the threaded holes, as the scope mounting is therefore simplified. There was no malice intended by the former owner by having a couple of threaded holes added, and in fact it was a logical step to take if someone wanted to mount a scope on his Model 70. Unfortunately, it does have a significant impact upon value. The receiver sight blocks the view of the rear bridge, but I hope that the holes are not there.
Frank46
US Veteran
I have a model 54 action that was made for the 30-30 cartridge. I'm planning on getting it rebarreled and in doing so removed the factory bbl.Reason for the rebbarel is that the bore looks like the inside of a coal mine, and I want it for shooting castbullets. On the underside of the bbl is stamped 28 for the year 1928 in which it was made. The front sight is actually part of the barrel. The sight blade is held in place with a cross pin. Bought this in Brooklyn many years ago after reading an ad in Shotgun News for sale @ $75 each. Dealer had one of those fiber 55 gallon drums filled with 54's. The only time I saw a complete 54 in 30-30 was in Pennsylvania and his had the carbine stock. The 54's did not have their bolts set up for use with a scope. I took mine to Griffen & Howe in NYC and for the magnificent sum of $40 had a model 70 bolt handle installed. Last year I finally located a used Winchester marksman stock in nice shape that had been altered for high power shooting. May not be moving fast on this but at least I got all the parts. the stamped trigger guard poses the only stumbling block. On a regular model 70 the front guard screw goes into the recoil lug. On a 54 though it goes into the underside of the receiver. Thanks to all for the info on this particular thread. Much appreciated. Frank
The stamps on the left side of the barrel and the receiver were struck after proof firing at the factory. I have a book, at my office, that refers to the proof firing as "swallowing the blue pill" (I think) and the proof rounds were, of course, maximum loads.
Great photos of what I hope is an original It "looks" right as rain to me but, a physical examination by a known vintage firearms expert will confirm it's heritage. Good luck and keep us posted!
Great photos of what I hope is an original It "looks" right as rain to me but, a physical examination by a known vintage firearms expert will confirm it's heritage. Good luck and keep us posted!
Thank you guys so much for helping me out...I talked with my dad who originally bought these guns in 2 collections, and like I said these were the two I was given (thought to be the most valuable of each collection) The collections were valued @ (s&w)2.3 and (m70)2.7mill as full and complete in the early 80's. So I told him what I had found out so far... holy cow ... He told me the story again... he was a little upset because he had some expert authenticate everything before he bought them... and went on about the hardback book again, which for me at this point, real or not, I want to uncover the mystery book.
I will say I would love to find the most or atleast a nationally known expert/appraiser to authenticate, near the gulf oast.
I will say I would love to find the most or atleast a nationally known expert/appraiser to authenticate, near the gulf oast.
Wyatt Burp
Member
It would go like this at the Vegas pawn shop...
Tonka: "Hi, Rick. I have this scarce 9mm Model 70."
Rick: "You wanna sell, it, pawn it, or give it to me, HaHaHa!!"
Tonka: "I'd like to sell it."
Rick: "What are you looking to get?"
Tonka: "I was thinking $4,800."
Rick: "Uhhhhhhhhhhhh, I don't think so. The reason they're so scarce is nobody wanted them in that caliber. If I had it in my shop it would sit here forever because the ammo is impossible to get. Tell ya' what. I'll give you $150 for it. That's the best I could do."
Then most people (not you, Tonka) on the show would say: "Uhh..could you go... $175?"
Then Rick would relent: "OK. $175. Let's go write it up."
Tonka: "Hi, Rick. I have this scarce 9mm Model 70."
Rick: "You wanna sell, it, pawn it, or give it to me, HaHaHa!!"
Tonka: "I'd like to sell it."
Rick: "What are you looking to get?"
Tonka: "I was thinking $4,800."
Rick: "Uhhhhhhhhhhhh, I don't think so. The reason they're so scarce is nobody wanted them in that caliber. If I had it in my shop it would sit here forever because the ammo is impossible to get. Tell ya' what. I'll give you $150 for it. That's the best I could do."
Then most people (not you, Tonka) on the show would say: "Uhh..could you go... $175?"
Then Rick would relent: "OK. $175. Let's go write it up."
Haven't heard of that .225 mentioned in quite a while tex. Brings back some memories. Had a Winchester Model 70 in 225 back in early 70s. Push feed and that god awful stamped checkering. Guess trying to replace it with the .220 Swift did not work out! Mine had a sporter barrel. From what I hear too not all that many produced.
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