ID These Navy Pilots' Knives

[Texas Star]

Footage from, "The Bridges at Toko-ri" , Korean War.

F-9F Panther flown by Harry Brubaker has been hit while bombing an enemy bridge. The other pilot, CAG, is trying to help him make it back to the carrier.

Look at the knives on their chests. I think Brubaker (Wm. Holden) has a Western, of the model they called the shark knife. He was from Denver and Western was a CO company, and that adds likelihood to that, maybe. I think CAG has a Pal RH-36.

Do you martial knife collectors agree? Some of you have posted these very models here, from your collections.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF-SC-9b7tc[/ame]

 

[30-30remchester]

You are entirely correct. William has a Western shark knife with a full steel hilt in a correct sheath with a drilled pommel. The other knife does appear to be a Pal RH36. I study was photos in search of equipment used. Quite a few real navy pilots can be seen with Pal's and Western Shark's.

 

[Texas Star]

We're the only two guys here with enough class and taste to appreciate this topic?

Check the Other Brands forum to see a nice M-4 carbine bayonet and its sheath.

 

[les.b]

Okay, T.S., I'm with you!!! I came here because of your post on jsfricks' post on the M-4 Bayonet-Knife. I'm a little out of my depth and field, but this is all good stuff! I followed his link to the web site on M-4 s, and am in the middle of reading about US bayonets. I know very little about military knives, but am fascinated. BTW... This looks like a good flick, I saw it years ago, may have to see if it's on Netflix or Amazon prime.

 

[Lt JL]

It was a great novella by James Michener.

 

[shouldazagged]

We're the only two guys here with enough class and taste to appreciate this topic?

Check the Other Brands forum to see a nice M-4 carbine bayonet and its sheath.

Perhaps the only ones sufficiently erudite on the subject?

 

[eveled]

Just saw the thread, I agree with both knife ID's. The distinctive guard is a dead give away on the Rh36.

 

[les.b]

T. Star: Well, you already cost me $14.99. Neither Amazon or Netflix had Bridges for free, so I bought the HD version on Amazon. Glad I did. The detail is amazing. You didn't tell us about Grace Kelly! That was a bonus. Also we had M-1 carbines and what looked like a Victory model 38, which would have been appropriate. I hail from a Navy family. My own postings have been (when at sea) on Destroyers, both of which were built during WWII. I have been on Carriers, but not stationed on one. All of the hardware and accouterments looked authentic. A well done film, and I'm glad to have it in my "virtual" collection. Thanks for the heads up!!!

 

[les.b]

OK, as a recent (just this afternoon) student of military knives, how about this one:

A RH35 U. S. N. Mark I for sale recently on a well known internet vendor:

Could this have been CAG's knife?







Okay, I just found a photo of the RH 36:



I see the difference in the gaurd, it is the 36 and not the 35 then, because we can see the gaurd on CAG's knife, and it extends on both sides of the blade, and is thinner. OK!!! I'm starting to get the hang of this. Must have too much time on my hands.

I freely admit my colossal ignorance on the subject.

 

[30-30remchester]

OK, as a recent (just this afternoon) student of military knives, how about this one:

A RH35 U. S. N. Mark I for sale recently on a well known internet vendor:

Could this have been CAG's knife?







I freely admit my colossal ignorance on the subject.

I have my reservations that this was the model of knife CAG was wearing. Though identical in handle appearance and same make, yours is a Mark 1 known as a deck knife. Many photos can be seen with sailors wearing this model. The Pal Mark 1's were the most common made. I have a friend who was issued one of these in the 1960's. Most all photos I have seen of WW2 navy pilots had the 6" variety known as a 6" utility knife. Those in the real world about anything could have been carried. While manufactures produced copious amounts of gear during the war they never caught up with knife demand. My neighbor enlisted in 1944 and was assigned to a LST. The navy could not supply him with a knife so the gave him an allowance to purchase his own. He wrote to mom and she shipped him his old Boy Scout knife.

 

[les.b]

Well, I am certainly not an expert, or even very knowledgeable about the subject. My own Navy service was from 1965 to 1969, and you are right, sailors carried just about whatever they felt like. I still have a folding knife (hadn't even thought of it for years) in a belt scabbard with a small fid in that fit into the scabbard, and I had done some fancywork around the scabbard and the top of the fid (at least that's what I think I remember that it was called), and I wore that combination on a belt when on board ship. Geeze... Now I'm going to have to dig that up! If I can find it I'll photo it and show it here.

I was just trying to get in the spirt of Texas Star's post, and offer some guesses on the subject. I remember that at one time I had one of these Mark Is, they were common on board ship, but as you pointed out, personal knives also abounded in the everyday give and take of operations. Since the Navy was cooperating in the production of this film to the extent of making something like 15 or 16 ships and a lot of aircraft available, I'm sure that there were technical directors who helped with uniform and equipment choices and supplied whatever was required to the 'crew'. It's fun analyzing all of his sixty years later, though!!!

 

[30-30remchester]

Les.b, I have stare at every old photo I can to study the equipment. I have seen about every type of knife on soldiers and sailors. There are some givens though. Mark 1's, one of my all time favorites, were sailor knives, Mark 2's were Marine knives (I saw a photo of an army man wearing a Mark 2 while in Italy) Mark 3's were army knives. All of these were common but by no means exclusive. In a recent photo I saw a marine wearing a Ruana on his hip. The first I have ever seen. My goal it to find an authentic photo of someone wearing either a Cole or Huff knuckle knife. The search continues. The agony for us collectors is ID'ing a particular knife to a particular GI. You stated you had a knife you used during the sixties while on an extended government vacation. I think I speak for more than myself that we would really like to see your knife and hear the details of service and where you acquired the knife. Then I would like to offer some unsolicited advise. Please refrain from polishing it up or over cleaning. The dirt, grease, and pocket lint are this knifes story. Also I would suggest you locate the knife, write it and you history, and store them together in a safe place for your posterity.

 

[les.b]

Thanks 30-30, that's good advise. I have done that with my service revolvers, and even 'off-duty' guns that I carried when on the police force, but I had forgotten all about that darn knife! Now that I think about it, I also had some rather undistinguished pocket type, govt issue knives: a folding 'electricians' knife that I used in my electronics technician job, and a stainless steel folding knife that looked like a Boy Scout knife without scales on it, and was marked 'US' on the side. I think these may all still be floating around somewhere. I also brought home my toolbox full of electronics tools.... Heck, I had forgotten most of this stuff even existed. I guess I owe Texas Star and you both a big thanks for getting this thread going! I'm not at home right now, but will try to get some photos.

 

[Targets Guy]

Great movie.

 

[Texas Star]

Yes, a great movie, and I read the book years ago, too.

Grace Kelly was definitely an asset.

Les, look at the details in sheaths and guards. The PAL knives are easy to distinguish from the parent Remington patterns because the pommels are smaller and of distinctive shape.

Look for pics of Maj. Gen. James Gavin, 82nd Airborne commander, wearing his Randall Model 1. It's on his left, across from his .45 auto. He also carried an M-1 rifle, not a carbine.

Look for Col. Darby and his Rangers. Good pics of their Fairbairn-Sykes daggers. One shows the unit doctor, knife right behind his .45 auto.

 

[30-30remchester]

I was thinking of starting a thread about military knives that can be ID'ed to individual soldiers. I started a thread a year ago about such a knife and it garnished great interest. I thought another thread with members showing knives that have names and serial numbers would be of particular interest. I have a fair collection of military knives but only a few with any markings. My wife does the photo work and she is seldom home. If I can catch her on the way through I will post the ones I have.

 

[03hemi]

Here's the F9F my dad flew in Korea and his squadron patch.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Here's the F9F my dad flew in Korea and his squadron patch.

Love that patch!
Do you have any photos of your Dad in flying gear?
Here's a Carrier Pilot getting ready to strap on a Corsair.

 

[Texas Star]

Love that patch!
Do you have any photos of your Dad in flying gear?
Here's a Carrier Pilot getting ready to strap on a Corsair.

Look at this guy's knife. I think it may be one of those Western brand shark knives like Brubaker carried in the movie. Faint image, but I think I see the same silver pommel, in the distinctive Western shape.

The present pilot's knife wasn't adopted until at least 1957, and originally had a six-inch blade, a Marble's pattern based on their famous Ideal model. Pilots thought it was a little long for best comfort, so they reduced the blade to five inches on production models. That's the one you've probably seen, with the saw teeth on the back of the blade.

The tan sheath has a pocket for a hone.

I've read that the Randall Model 5 with five-inch blade fits the sheath on the survival vest and some pilots order them. One guy I read about was selling them to fellow pilots, hopefully at a humane price. And the Fallkniven models F-1 and S-1 are authorized for unit purchase for flight crews. They have US National Stock Numbers, and passed grueling trials with both the US and Swedish AF boards. The F-1 is issued to Royal Swedish AF pilots.

The Fallkniven A-1 also passed those tests, but is too large for the sheath on the vest. It is, however, popular with Norwegian Marines willing to pay for a superior knife. The company is close-mouthed, but admits that the A -1 and A-2 have seen extensive use with Norwegian troops in Afghanistan. Supposedly, they like the longer A-2 to probe for mines. I bet they also buy them as weapons. But it isn't PC in socialist Scandinavian countries to discuss stabbing people, so the tool potential is mentioned.

 

[les.b]

T. Star, I just know that this thread is going to end up costing me more money than I paid for "Bridges at Toko-Ri". Now you and the other posters have me researching all kinds of knives. Just did some research on the Fällkniven F-1, S-1, and A-1. Read all kinds of reviews on them. Apparently they are the cat's pajamas of the survival and military market. Everybody seems to have them for sale: you can go to Sweden and order from the website, or here in this country, even Amazon.com and Walmart.com carry them. Soldier of Fortune did a great review of them by some guy that runs around the world teaching survival skills to everyone from soldiers to Bulgarian goathearders. He swears by them. Just yesterday I had never heard of them... Now I don't know how I'm going to get along without one. I understand you can even use them to cut up blocks of goat cheese.

Of course, I now also need a couple of WWII and Korea War issue military knives to get me through the summer. I'm still reading and researching. Trying not to vist eBay, but it beckons. Good Lord.