Powder burn rates, PF and recoil

[DIYguy]

I started shooting USPSA last year and have gotten pretty serious about it. Also made the jump into reloading.
I shoot a variety of guns and as part of getting the guns zeroed in I've been experimenting with lots of different brands of ammo, bullet weights etc. 9mm seems the least picky, the 40S&W and the 45 are VERY picky.

So far what I've settled in on:
9mm 115gr Am Eagle (still open to change)
40S&W Win 3GUN 180gr Flat point @950 fps PF 171
45 Win 3GUN 230gr Flat point @800 fps PF184

I have Berries bullets in the caliburs and weights above.
Have Hodgdon HP-38 and Hodgdon HS-6 and Alliant Unique for powder so far but not locked in to these, just what I could find on the shelf at the time.

Now for the questions.
Can anyone help with the recipe to replicate the above or recommend a better combination? Also, am I correct in understanding that a slower burning powder will create less perceived recoil compared to a fast burn? Seems the charts don't always address recoil, just velocity so they don't answer the burn rate question.

Have over (5,000) casings sorted, polished, bagged and ready to load just want to be informed before I start producing rounds that aren't what I need.
Any opinions and can anyone help?

 

[DIYguy]

PS....
Have all the equipment set up, ready to start loading but so far have not loaded a single round. Want to get it right the first time, so ...learn from the experts.

 

[fredj338]

I have Berries bullets in the caliburs and weights above.
Have Hodgdon HP-38 and Hodgdon HS-6 and Alliant Unique for powder so far but not locked in to these, just what I could find on the shelf at the time.

Now for the questions.
Can anyone help with the recipe to replicate the above or recommend a better combination? Also, am I correct in understanding that a slower burning powder will create less perceived recoil compared to a fast burn? Seems the charts don't always address recoil, just velocity so they don't answer the burn rate question.

?

No loading data i have seen addresses recoil, but generally, the slower the powder the greater the volume of powder for equal vel, the higher the recoil. Powder wt adds to bullet wt for recoil calculations. There is also a theory, which seems born out, that the peak pressure of faster powders can reduce recoil impulse.
Most gamers will use heaviest bulleys available with small charges of fast powder to meet PF with least recoil. So look to powders like WST, Ramshot Comp, even old RedDot under heavy for caliber bullets for softer recoil impulse. In 9mm i use 147gr or even 160gr. In 40, 180gr over 3.1gr of wst is less recoil than your factory 115/9mm. For 40 major, hp38 will give you less felt recoil than hs6.

 

[BC38]

I can't answer your question directly but can offer a piece of good advice I have seen repeated many times.

DON'T pick a recipe and produce a bunch of them. Pick a powder and projectile combo you want to try, from published load data.

Load no more than a dozen or so with that bullet and a powder at the minimum published charge weight.

Load another dozen or so with a slightly increased powder charge (.1 or .2 grains more powder).

Repeat with increasing increments of powder charge up to about 80% of the max charge for that combo.

Keep the different loadings separated so you don't mix them up.

Take them to the range and try them out and see which loading works best in your gun.

Then make a larger batch of THAT exact recipe. This is what they mean by "start at the minimum and work your way up". That is the best advice I've seen to tailor the reloads to your gun and your requirements.

 

[Rogeronimo]

The "dozen or so" suggestion is spot on, and is exactly what I do.During the last powder shortage, I amassed an eclectic assortment of powder, and the loads that I settled on were quite unexpected, some nowhere to be found in published data. My criteria is simple: 100% cycling, accurate, sensible recoil. Considering your cartridges, I would add WST, Greendot, Longshot, American Select, Universal Clays, Ramshot Silhouette ... perhaps even International Clays, Herco, and 700X to the mix. And there's a new guy in town ... Winchester 572. I'm partial to International Clays behind a 230 45ACP (though Silhouette is impressive), whilst 800X pushes my 124 9MM. Best of luck!

 

[Rule3]

You will need to have a chronograph to determine your velocities and related power factors.

Many different powders will produce the same power factors

Faster burn powders are OK in the low pressure rounds like the 45. I like slower burn in the higher pressure, They tend to fill the case more. Others like fast burn as they use less of it but fast burn produces pressure quickly and if you double charge the case then you have problems.

The 9mm and 40 SW are more of a high pressure round compared to the 45 acp. The standard GI load for 45 ACP and a 230 gr bullet for a gazillion years was/is Bullseye of a about 4.8 gr and a 230 gr RN hard ball bullet, Will give you around 830 fps

so somewhere around these loads will get you there. Note these are not mine so use at your own risk and peril, Depends on your gun, COL etc etc.

For 45 ACP as example.

5.0 gr. Bullseye
6.0 gr. Unique
5.5 gr. 231/HP38
6.2 gr. WSF
5.0 gr. WST

Here is good article on 40 SW loading "Light"

Make Right With a ".40 Lite"

 

[shovelwrench]

I have experienced lighter recoil with slower powders... Specifically in .38 special from a snub nose (640)!!

+P 158gr loaded with Unique, FEEL, much lighter than a 148gr target load!!!!

Call me crazy, but try it....

On the other end of the scale, I have a .38 super 1911. 6" barrel that I run mostly 147gr TC out of over 3.3gr of bullseye. The slide movement itself seems to give more recoil then the load. It runs right at 1000fps, which IS major PF. And it does this while throwing 1" groups @ 25yds!!!!



As for suggestions, you will definitely need a chronograph.

BUT, any load you can find meeting the velocity for PF with a slower powder should, theoretically, yield the results your looking for.

 

[scooter123]

I'm NOT one of those who believes that a difference of 3 or 4 grains of powder weight will have any perceptible effect on felt recoil if the bullet velocity is the same. So I would ignore that advice to ONLY use a "fast" powder. There are two problems with "fast" powders in my opinion. One is that with a powder such as Titegroup in can be alarmingly easy to load a double charge, which can result in a blown up handgun. The second is that with a heavy for caliber bullet in can be difficult to produce enough velocity to meet a specific power factor in some cases without loading to a pressure OVER the defined maximum. So I'll suggest a couple of powders that are somewhat "slow" but have excellent metering qualities and that can produce higher velocities at a reduced peak pressure.

For your 9mm you'll have a hard time finding a finer choice than Vitavouri 3N37. The burn rate of this particular powder falls into that "ideal" zone for the 9mm or 38 caliber (including light energy 357 Magnums). This powder will also work very well for 180 grain bullets in the 40 S&W. BTW, the starting charge for the 40 caliber will exceed the minimum velocity for your power factor by a rather comfortable margin so you can probably do without chronographing your loads. Finally this powder meters very very well in every powder measure I've used so unlike with Unique you do NOT have to hand weigh each and every charge.

For your 45 ACP loads I'm going to suggest a powder specifically designed for the 45 ACP, so it's King of the Hill for achieving excellent velocities at a moderate for the caliber pressure level. That powder is Accurate #5 and in addition to being perfect for the 45 ACP it is also one of the best metering powders on the planet. Meaning once you have your powder measure dialed in you can throw charge after charge and never see more than a 0.07 grain variation in the powder charge. BTW, typical observed variation is only 0.03 grain, that 0.07 number is a 1 in 300 throw maximum theoretical deviation. The only powder I've found that meters better than the Accurate Handgun Ball powders is H110, so it's a marvelous choice for building consistent loads.

Finally that bit about heavier bullets producing a softer perceived recoil is IMO 100% correct. With a 230 grain bullet the recoil is more of a push than a punch and it is noticeable when compared side by side to a 185 grain load for the 45 ACP loaded to the same power factor. However in terms of muzzle flip my impression is that there really isn't any difference, to me they seem about equal in terms of the firing rate I am capable of shooting at.

 

[rwsmith]

I would think..

I would think that you would only want to try batches in YOUR guns. Since PF is defined and required, you can ignore any load that doesn't meet that. That's a good reason to have chrono.

An experience that I've had. I was looking for a light recoiling load in 9mm and it was suggested to me that I try a 147 grain LSWC with a light charge of Acc #7. I tried out this combo and not only was the recoil very light but it was the most accurate load I had shot from my 3rd Gen. Also, shootable because the follow ups are so easy.

 

[fredj338]

Finally that bit about heavier bullets producing a softer perceived recoil is IMO 100% correct. With a 230 grain bullet the recoil is more of a push than a punch and it is noticeable when compared side by side to a 185 grain load for the 45 ACP loaded to the same power factor. However in terms of muzzle flip my impression is that there really isn't any difference, to me they seem about equal in terms of the firing rate I am capable of shooting at.

This is only true of running the same PF, not true if pushed at the same vel. Its a physics thing.

 

[fredj338]

I would think that you would only want to try batches in YOUR guns. Since PF is defined and required, you can ignore any load that doesn't meet that. That's a good reason to have chrono.

An experience that I've had. I was looking for a light recoiling load in 9mm and it was suggested to me that I try a 147 grain LSWC with a light charge of Acc #7. I tried out this combo and not only was the recoil very light but it was the most accurate load I had shot from my 3rd Gen. Also, shootable because the follow ups are so easy.

Try the same bullet with 3.6gr of WST, get back to me on the recoil.

 

[DIYguy]

This is why I love these forums.....
Regarding chronograph..absolutely! I'm shopping different chronos at this time, also REALLY open to recommendations. Will likely be borrowing a good friends till I pick one. He's more into reloading for big bores and Elk hunting so different reload data.

Also looking for good sources for powders. Lucky to have a Cabela's open last year about one mile from my office. Bad for my bank account. They love to stock Hodgdon but as noted above, lots of other options available out there. (267 according to some charts) Found Winchester WST on the list, haven't found WSF. ?

Now that the official USPSA season has ended I'm into planning for next year. A lot of the same group shoot an indoor practice league but scores don't post. Was shooting the 115gr 9mm as easy to get and cheap and when you walk away from 1,200++ casings in the dirt during the season...well. Time to experiment with heavier bullets, different loads etc.

Keep it coming guys, I'm loving it!!

 

[DIYguy]

Chronographs

Since we've been on the subject of chronographs....
I've been leaning towards the Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital Chronograph. Even on sale at Midway right now.
Pretty good price for the reviews, any opinions yay or nay?

 

[Rule3]

Since we've been on the subject of chronographs....
I've been leaning towards the Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital Chronograph. Even on sale at Midway right now.
Pretty good price for the reviews, any opinions yay or nay?[/QUOTE

YAY!

 

[DIYguy]

Like the positive so. OK. Done Chrono ordered plus the Bluetooth adapter for iPhone/iPad. Really like all the features the Bluetooth added.
I do not like to borrow things so chrono on it's way.

 

[wyo-man]

I shoot a S&W Model 10 .38 spl (revolver division) in USPSA. A chrono was the only way to work up a load to the required PF as the velocities listed in the manuals didn't match what the loads actually measured.
I think I tried 5 different powders and loads trying to balance PF with safe loads. Also looked for the cleanest.

wyo-man

 

[Jboutfishn]

Shooting a 200 grain plated RN 45 over 4.9 gr Autocomp makes major PF without undue recoil.

 

[Rule3]

Like the positive so. OK. Done Chrono ordered plus the Bluetooth adapter for iPhone/iPad. Really like all the features the Bluetooth added.
I do not like to borrow things so chrono on it's way.

Its a great chrono and about the cheapest I have seen it.!

I have used one for years and it never screws up like the other brand I had.

May have to get that Bluetooth adapter

 

[DIYguy]

Scooter123: Really great info. I did some searching for the Vitavouri 3N37 powder and reviews look good but $50 for 1# of powder is a bit steep compared to so many of the other powders. Is it really that much better?

Seen rave reviews for using Alliant Power Pistol for 9mm and 40 but almost impossible to find.
* Did find a shop that has some. 70 mile round trip to reloading supplier across town, rush hour traffic. Seriously considering it anyway.

What I have on shelf so far is:
Alliant Unique
Hodgdon HP38 & HS6

What I have found locally available is:
Hodgdon CFE Pistol, Tite Group and CFE 223 (AR needs to feed also)
Accurate No. 7, No. 5 and 2230 (AR again)
Winchester WSF

If I start working up recipes I better work with powders I can get. sucks to find the perfect combination and can't get the powder.

Another topic:
After trying a LOT of different 45 factory loads I've settled in on 45 Win 3GUN 230gr Flat point @800 fps PF184
I've heard / read flat point are more accurate. Problem I'm running into is I can't find 230gr in flat point, just round nose. Only 230 FP I've found is Hornady HAP at .21 per bullet bulk. Berrys RN are only .14
Flat or round?

 

[hdwhit]

No loading data i have seen addresses recoil

Same here, but SAAMI does have a technical paper on recoil. See: http://www.saami.org/PubResources/GunRecoilFormulae.pdf