It appears that there's a problem with the 15/22!

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So some 15-22 decides to go full auto at an Appleseed event. You seriously going to trust the statement from the owner that he didn't make adjustments to the trigger or do you think he might possibly lie to protect his own arse? My simple point is, Appleseed can't simply say these guns are dangerous without proper investigation. If the gun owner is allowed to take their gun home, how can S&W know what happened?
I agree.

One thing is clear from Appleseeds release: the rifle went full auto only after one of Appleseeds "highly qualified" instuctors worked on it.

"...I had purchased several extractors, springs and dowel pins – replaced it a second time and it worked fine all up until I had a “Run-Away…”

So, an "instructor" works on a gun and only after his working on it does it have a "Run-Away" and it's the guns' fault???

As to another shooter getting a piece of brass in their arm from an OOB, first thing I'd want to know is how close together they had the shooters? Too close? Unlike bolt actions semi-autos spit hot brass There are common sense things that should be observed... like distance between shooters.
 
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So let me get this correct, you are more worried about S&W than you are about safety? Hmmm.
No, but nice try. What I am against is knee jerk reactions based on iffy, isolated, poorly researched/documented incidents.

It appears determining what actually happened if there is an incident is not part of the "instructor" training curriculum. Apparently gunsmithing is also not part of the curriculum when a rifle goes full auto after an "instructor" works on it. Blame the gun?

Seems this could have been handled in a much better more competent way.
 
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Doesn't it make since if the stock trigger was causing any issue, such as deciding to go auto or shoot on reset, that we would be hearing about it here? Since competition shooters are looking for a competitive edge, doesn't it make sense that maybe these guns causing these problems have been modified?



Why wouldn't Appleseed first verify these issues were caused by a stock gun, as opposed to one that has had trigger work done on it? At least to me, that would be where I would start.



Appleseed is just playing it smart.If someone is injured at one of their events,they will be sued along with S&W.
 
After over 65 years of shooting 22's I have had two rounds detonate when I pulled the trigger. Lots of smoke, very loud, extractor blown out of the action, one barrel damaged, one bolt broken. Neither could have been a fired 'out of battery' problem.

One was with CCI Blazer, one with Federal Target. CCI and Federal both claimed it was because the firearms fired out of battery, blaming the firearm. My gunsmith and I both agree, the rounds were overcharged, probably with priming compound.

What we need is an independent lab where we can have problems like this resolved.

I want to add that in all my dealings with Smith & Wesson customer service they have been totally honest, concerned and treated me right!

One thing I learned is that I will not stand to the right of someone firing a rifle or pistol that ejects to the right. One extractor from my Win. Mod 61 traveled over 15 feet, could very easily injured anyone on my right.

I have found a big difference between Remington customer service and Federal - CCI customer service. Remington will likely say, wow, we are sorry, was any one hurt? Then work you.

The other two CCI & Federal were on the defense immediately and it did not get any better.
 
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This does kinda reek of lawyers and covering their rear by throwing S&W under the bus...

The fact stands that if any of the users of these suspect rifles DID anything with the triggers, springs or extractors, then S&W are not at fault, neither is the 15-22. Any user repairs or modifications would void any responsibility S&W have for any accident or injury occurring from...it does seem to be a glaring omission from the Appleseed condemnation, as to whether the rifles were using 'correct ammunition' or had modified their rifles in any way...and as was stated by Jim, would they come clean to polishing here or snipping a spring there, well S&W would probably be able to tell, but seeing as though no rifle was confiscated or sent to them...they will not get the chance to investigate. Seems to be a bit of a pig circus to me. A deflection from bad practice by people providing the end user a place to test their wares. If i had a full auto on a 15-22 and i was 100% positive that i had not modded the rifle in anyway or done work on it myself...then i would be suing S&W myself...the fact that no one is bringing an immediate lawsuit suggests that someone knows something they are not telling.
 
The fact stands that if any of the users of these suspect rifles DID anything with the triggers, springs or extractors, then S&W are not at fault, neither is the 15-22. Any user repairs or modifications would void any responsibility S&W have for any accident or injury occurring from...it does seem to be a glaring omission from the Appleseed condemnation...

Actually it's worse than that. From Appleseeds' release:

"EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE USE OF SMITH AND WESSON M&P 15/22’S AT AN APPLESEED IS HEREBY BANNED UNTIL SMITH & WESSON FORMALLY INVESTIGATES THE PROBLEM AND ISSUES AN OFFICIAL CORRECTIVE ACTION. THE AOC WILL NOTIFY THE CADRE WHEN THIS BAN IS LIFTED."

Appleseed certainly appears to be washing their hands of this and dumping on S&W.

Gotta agree with GhostMutt that there's more to this we're not hearing.
 
I just hope this issue is not just a fabrication, in an attempt to keep the "black rifles" out of the hands of our youth. :confused:

I actually know some pro-gun people with that attitude. They tell me they serve no purpose, and are not "sportsman like".
 
A couple of things to consider about Appleseed's (temporary) ban:

It has not yet been determined how many of the 15/22's that have had troubles are stock, and how many have had aftermarket or reworked parts installed. This is undoubtedly a work in progress. In any case, it's probably impractical to demand that instructors/RSO's inspect and determine which is which, on the line, on into the future. Or to test-fire every rifle before the instruction starts. Or teach every novice how to clean the rifle, including the action and fire control parts.

The same goes with allowed/disallowed ammo types, if it is determined that only some types cause the problem. Of course it's better if all shooters everywhere adhere to factory recommendations - but that would be really hard to enforce, especially on novice shooters and considering that there are still .22 shortages and spotty supplies nationwide.
And how would you strictly control shooters "borrowing" ammo from each other? Would you turn away an attendee because he picked up a brick of non-recommended ammo on the way to the shoot?

These are real and practical considerations, especially with novice shooters, where the "rubber meets the road," on the line on a Saturday morning.

Nobody is disputing that many, probably a majority, of 15/22 users have put hundreds or thousands of rounds through their rifles, with or without a strict cleaning regimen, with no troubles at all. And of course, there have been incidents with other models. But there clearly DOES SEEM to be a pattern of problems with 15/22's, that begs for investigation and resolution. That's what's going on now. Sorry, it just isn't possible to give immediate, definitive answers to all the very legitimate questions and objections that this decision has raised. I am confident that this investigative process is under way.

That's undoubtedly why Appleseed leaders took the interim steps they did, until this can get sorted out. Just my assumptions, because I am a line instructor and not at the program leadership level. Of course, no course of action will please everybody or be the perfect solution to every situation.

I DO trust the good faith of the Appleseed leadership, and am giving them the room and time they need to arrive at a long-term solution.
 
Nobody is disputing that many, probably a majority, of 15/22 users have put hundreds or thousands of rounds through their rifles, with or without a strict cleaning regimen, with no troubles at all. And of course, there have been incidents with other models. But there clearly DOES SEEM to be a pattern of problems with 15/22's, that begs for investigation and resolution...

Just my assumptions, because I am a line instructor and not at the program leadership level.

Your ASSUMPTIONS are clearly at odds with what Appleseed has stated:

"EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE USE OF SMITH AND WESSON M&P 15/22’S AT AN APPLESEED IS HEREBY BANNED UNTIL SMITH & WESSON FORMALLY INVESTIGATES THE PROBLEM AND ISSUES AN OFFICIAL CORRECTIVE ACTION. THE AOC WILL NOTIFY THE CADRE WHEN THIS BAN IS LIFTED."

Note where Appleseed says: "...UNTIL SMITH & WESSON FORMALLY INVESTIGATES THE PROBLEM AND ISSUES AN OFFICIAL CORRECTIVE ACTION..."

SOP is to remove the firearm in question until what's wrong has been corrected. It seems in this instance Appleseed chose to tar all 15-22s with the same brush.

What has been reported can, and does happen with other semi-auto rimfires. I particularly like blaming the rifle for going full auto AFTER YOUR "QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR" WORKED ON IT.

Your "assumptions" seem to be contradicted by what Appleseed has said...
 
I just hope this issue is not just a fabrication, in an attempt to keep the "black rifles" out of the hands of our youth. :confused:

I actually know some pro-gun people with that attitude. They tell me they serve no purpose, and are not "sportsman like".

I'm absolutely confident that "anti-evil-black-rifle" sentiment is NOT a factor in this decision. AR-variant rifles in general (and other military-style rifles) of whatever color are completely welcome at Appleseed events.

This temporary ban applies only to the S&W M&P 15/22, and will be in force until a fix is found, or determined to be unnecessary. Or whatever is determined to be appropriate after the investigation is completed.
 
I'm absolutely confident that "anti-evil-black-rifle" sentiment is NOT a factor in this decision. AR-variant rifles in general (and other military-style rifles) of whatever color are completely welcome at Appleseed events.

This temporary ban applies only to the S&W M&P 15/22, and will be in force until a fix is found, or determined to be unnecessary. Or whatever is determined to be appropriate after the investigation is completed.

Interesting how you make your ASSUMPTIONS sound like facts... even when they're contradicted by what Appleseed has put in writing.

...Just my assumptions, because I am a line instructor and not at the program leadership level...
 
Ug I've met the exact same point of view taking my daughter shooting with my 15-22. Some comments about mag fed, semi auto and magnified optic all being "wrong" for beginners.

The only manually operated long gun in my safe is my shotgun. Everything else is semi auto. And had an optic.
 
It has not yet been determined how many of the 15/22's that have had troubles are stock, and how many have had aftermarket or reworked parts installed. This is undoubtedly a work in progress. In any case, it's probably impractical to demand that instructors/RSO's inspect and determine which is which, on the line, on into the future.

And how do you determine, after the fact, if the guns were modified? If you were with S&W, what would you say? If someone has modified a gun and then had an issue with it, say going full auto or the safety not working, you honestly think they would admit that?

Logic tells me, if the 15-22 was unsafe, if it went full auto on its own or if the safety sometimes didn't work, that there would be all sorts of discussion here. The main topic of discussion here, when it comes to failures, is simple things like failing to eject.

My experience here on this board is that competitive shooters are the ones most likely to customize and/or adjust their triggers... especially as they try to get the trigger to be less than 3 lbs. The lighter the trigger, the more accurate they will be & the faster they can shoot. This board is full of threads of folks switching out trigger & hammer springs to get a lighter pull. We all also know the downside of such modifications is a much more dangerous gun. There is a reason why the stock trigger on a 15-22 is so heavy, because such a trigger is safe. There is also plenty of discussion where folks didn't realize the safety spring & detent were in the grip & were perplexed why their safety quit working after removal of the grip.

Everything I know about the 15-22 & everything I read here makes me think these problem guns were modified. That is a much more logical guess than saying the stock 15-22 is so unsafe as to be banned. If Appleseed was having such an issue with stock 15-22s, wouldn't it be logical other competitions would see the same? Wouldn't it be logical those folks experiencing these failures would come here for help? Since they aren't reporting those issues here, what does logic tell you?

IMO, a more prudent course of action for Appleseed would have been to confiscate any such dangerous weapon & evaluate that weapon as to why it failed. If they had noticed a string of issues with 15-22s then they should have laid out a course of action to investigate the next gun that failed. Proper inspection by a gunsmith & a detailed questioning of the shooter would then provide the information needed to take the next step. Only at the point you knew with confidence that it was stock guns creating these issues, would you then ban that model & contact the manufacturer. Doing anything else would be of no benefit to anyone... and likely lead to legal action. In the business world you NEVER publicly question the safety of a product without FACTS.
 
My experience here on this board is that competitive shooters are the ones most likely to customize and/or adjust their triggers... especially as they try to get the trigger to be less than 3 lbs. The lighter the trigger, the more accurate they will be & the faster they can shoot. This board is full of threads of folks switching out trigger & hammer springs to get a lighter pull. We all also know the downside of such modifications is a much more dangerous gun. There is a reason why the stock trigger on a 15-22 is so heavy, because such a trigger is safe. There is also plenty of discussion where folks didn't realize the safety spring & detent were in the grip & were perplexed why their safety quit working after removal of the grip.
Yes. Read this forum for a while and you see many questionable ways of lightening the trigger pull.

Yrs ago, before aftermarket triggers were so available, before the Clinton assault weapons ban, I modified AR triggers. I installed set screws in the lower to adjust sear engagement and over travel. Much like some are doing now with a set screw in the pistol grip bolt hole.

A little too much "adjustment" and you had/have a very iffy trigger. Going full auto or doubling or tripling, safety engagement issues, and firing on trigger reset. Sound like some of what we're reading here?

The rest of what was needed to make this work was re-timing the disconnector. I welded and recut them. I also did a few with adjustable disconnectors. That made for a reliable trigger. Done right it worked well, low 2 lb trigger with stock springs, stock trigger and a "bobbed" but otherwise stock hammer. I don't do this anymore, there's too much good stuff available now. My 15-22s have Geissele triggers with the longer Colt 901 trigger and hammer pins. Geissele part # 02-269 for the pins.

The set screw mod being done currently I don't want to be around. There are other "great ways" of lightening 15-22 triggers that folks have posted here I also don't want to be around.

Nothing wrong with the gun, just what folks do to them...
 
Have owned my 15-22 for 2 1/2 years and have never had a problem. I clean it after every range visit. .22lr ammo can be pretty dirty.

If I recall correctly the owners manual specifically states not to use Remington Thunderbolt ammo in the M&P 15-22. There is a list of reccomended ammo in the owners manual.
You're absolutely right about what the manual says.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
 
Have owned my 15-22 for 2 1/2 years and have never had a problem. I clean it after every range visit. .22lr ammo can be pretty dirty.

If I recall correctly the owners manual specifically states not to use Remington Thunderbolt ammo in the M&P 15-22. There is a list of recommended ammo in the owners manual.

THAT, right freekin there!!
And I'd include Golden Bullets on that No-Bang list as well...just as crappy.
 
And I'd include Golden Bullets on that No-Bang list as well...just as crappy.
I've shot two 1600 rd buckets of Golden Bullets recently. It seemed they have fixed the priming issue as they went bang consistently (I ran them thru a Ruger 22/45 Lite and 15-22) but while they went bang the velocity varied excessively. It seemed like they exchanged the priming issue for an consistency issue with powder charge. There are several types of 22LR on my "I'm not buying more of these" list and Golden Bullet is one of them.

Just to clarify, NONE of the rds seemed too "hot", they felt and sounded like you were shooting a mixed batch of hi-velocity and sub standard velocity ammo.
 
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Looks like we have at least 2 threads going on this topic.

Too much anecdotal accounts for my liking to blame the M&P 15/22 and not enough real evidence to back it up.

Complete knee jerk reaction.
 
Let's try to clear the muddy water a bit here. I have had nine years of experience with the Appleseed program, involving many dozens of shoots. That said, I am not in a "high leadership" position with the program. I am, however, confident of the good faith of those in those positions.

About "assumptions:" We all know the old joke about what making assumptions does. I don't entirely agree. I think assumptions do that to us when we confuse our assumptions with known facts. As long as we keep explicitly, firmly in mind that we are dealing with assumptions that are subject to change, those assumptions (or working hypotheses) can be useful and do not hurt us.

Please let me explain some things about Appleseed shoots. They are not "matches." They are better described as "marksmanship clinics." No rankings (or even scores) are published nor winners announced. The only prizes awarded are embroidered "Rifleman" patches, worth maybe a couple of bucks, for those who score at least 210/250 on the 25 meter course or 200/250 for the full-distance (100 to 400 yard) course of fire.

The mood is surprisingly non-competitive. Do some trick out their rifles? Of course. A few elaborately, but most in minor ways. A few come with brand-new rifles still in the factory box and plastic bag! Do some want to outscore their buddy? Undoubtedly. But in my experience, the great majority of participants just want to learn how to shoot better. Most have not installed competition triggers or otherwise tricked-out their rifles, beyond installing aftermarket sights or scopes, and sling swivels. Most have not even attempted to "clean up" triggers with professional or kitchen-table home gunsmithing. Most wouldn't even know how to attempt that, and have better sense than to try. No rigorous statistical analysis, just my firm belief based on my experience.

Regarding failure to sequester malfunctioning rifles, or document the condition of those rifles, or keeping statistics of all models of rifles used and identified as having problems: No, to the best of my knowledge, that hasn't been done. I don't see how that would have been practical to do. In any case, Appleseed isn't preparing for a product-liability lawsuit, so that isn't necessary. There is no intention of any legal action. This ban on M&P 15/22's is a temporary one, possibly erring on the side of caution, because of anecdotal evidence and a "gut feel" that problems with that rifle seem to be more common than with other models. And we did have a shooter experience a minor injury at a shoot.

The situation is similar for analysis of ammo brands used. No statistics have been kept. MY OWN OPINION is that it is impractical for Appleseed to keep a list of every manufacturer's ammo recommendations and attempt to enforce shooter compliance. If some brands shoot more accurately, or function better, or run cleaner than others, that's only to be expected. But any ammo that meets SAAMI standards should be safe to use in any appropriately-chambered rifle.

Is this proof of a significant defect in the 15/22? No. Hardly. That's why it's an INVESTIGATION, and interim corrective action put in place until it can be determined whether there even is a problem, or, if there is, fix it.

What is not an assumption is that I have an M&P 15/22, an older model, that is absolutely stock, and has had functioning problems. If it turns out to be appropriate, it will be sent to the manufacturer to be used as an exemplar to assist in the investigation. Nobody knows right now what that investigation will reveal. Have I done something wrong, to cause the problem? I don't think so, but it could to be. Remember, that's why it's called an investigation.

I'm not looking for a victory in court or a cash award or anything else. I just want my fun little rifle back, so I can use it with confidence!

Thanks in advance for everybody's patience and understanding.
 
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