It appears that there's a problem with the 15/22!

[tomcatt51]

What is not an assumption is that I have an M&P 15/22, an older model, that is absolutely stock, and has had functioning problems. If it turns out to be appropriate, it will be sent to the manufacturer to be used as an exemplar to assist in the investigation. Nobody knows right now what that investigation will reveal.

What "functioning problem" have you had or are you having?

 

[jsha22lr]

I love how a squib load the fault of the rifle and not the ammo. The trigger issue is a known issue, that is nothing new. I'm ordering KNS pins to fix it in my rifle. Problem solved. The out of battery is an issue, but I can say I've only had it happen once. It was on my first 15-22 that was a first year production gun. I keep my bolt face and chamber relatively clean, and I've never had an issue. Honestly, I could care less about what a bunch of "range officers" and a organization that I've had no experience and don't intend on having any with says. I probably have close to 10k rounds combined through two 15-22s, and I've only had one out of battery issue and the trigger pin issue just started on my rifle. Their opinion doesn't hold much weight to me, and they can pound sand for all I care. It seems like a lot of people are having a knee jerk reaction.

 

[mn_doggie]

Let's try to clear the muddy water a bit here. I have had nine years of experience with the Appleseed program, involving many dozens of shoots. That said, I am not in a "high leadership" position with the program. I am, however, confident of the good faith of those in those positions.

About "assumptions:" We all know the old joke about what making assumptions does. I don't entirely agree. I think assumptions do that to us when we confuse our assumptions with known facts. As long as we keep explicitly, firmly in mind that we are dealing with assumptions that are subject to change, those assumptions (or working hypotheses) can be useful and do not hurt us.

Please let me explain some things about Appleseed shoots. They are not "matches." They are better described as "marksmanship clinics." No rankings (or even scores) are published nor winners announced. The only prizes awarded are embroidered "Rifleman" patches, worth maybe a couple of bucks, for those who score at least 210/250 on the 25 meter course or 200/250 for the full-distance (100 to 400 yard) course of fire.

The mood is surprisingly non-competitive. Do some trick out their rifles? Of course. A few elaborately, but most in minor ways. A few come with brand-new rifles still in the factory box and plastic bag! Do some want to outscore their buddy? Undoubtedly. But in my experience, the great majority of participants just want to learn how to shoot better. Most have not installed competition triggers or otherwise tricked-out their rifles, beyond installing aftermarket sights or scopes, and sling swivels. Most have not even attempted to "clean up" triggers with professional or kitchen-table home gunsmithing. Most wouldn't even know how to attempt that, and have better sense than to try. No rigorous statistical analysis, just my firm belief based on my experience.

Regarding failure to sequester malfunctioning rifles, or document the condition of those rifles, or keeping statistics of all models of rifles used and identified as having problems: No, to the best of my knowledge, that hasn't been done. I don't see how that would have been practical to do. In any case, Appleseed isn't preparing for a product-liability lawsuit, so that isn't necessary. There is no intention of any legal action. This ban on M&P 15/22's is a temporary one, possibly erring on the side of caution, because of anecdotal evidence and a "gut feel" that problems with that rifle seem to be more common than with other models. And we did have a shooter experience a minor injury at a shoot.

The situation is similar for analysis of ammo brands used. No statistics have been kept. MY OWN OPINION is that it is impractical for Appleseed to keep a list of every manufacturer's ammo recommendations and attempt to enforce shooter compliance. If some brands shoot more accurately, or function better, or run cleaner than others, that's only to be expected. But any ammo that meets SAAMI standards should be safe to use in any appropriately-chambered rifle.

Is this proof of a significant defect in the 15/22? No. Hardly. That's why it's an INVESTIGATION, and interim corrective action put in place until it can be determined whether there even is a problem, or, if there is, fix it.

What is not an assumption is that I have an M&P 15/22, an older model, that is absolutely stock, and has had functioning problems. If it turns out to be appropriate, it will be sent to the manufacturer to be used as an exemplar to assist in the investigation. Nobody knows right now what that investigation will reveal. Have I done something wrong, to cause the problem? I don't think so, but it could to be. Remember, that's why it's called an investigation.

I'm not looking for a victory in court or a cash award or anything else. I just want my fun little rifle back, so I can use it with confidence!

Thanks in advance for everybody's patience and understanding.

Have any other rifles been "temporarily banned" ever?

So, in all of the Appleseed events to date, there has never been another reported case or cases of firearms malfunctioning? Not even anecdotally? There have never been any cases of squib loads or ammo issues?

Are instances like that even reported and tracked? I have to believe that if the organization, as large as it appears to be, has had way more issues with some other brands of rifles.

People are allowed to bring, in some cases, highly modified (perhaps not by a qualified gunsmith) firearms without any kind of review by a qualified person and that's OK? And none of those have ever caused an issue?

I'll bet that if all issues were accurately reported there have been many, many more issues with some of the rifles that are more popular than the 15-22.

I tend to believe this is a anti black rifle issue.

The organization needs to come up with a reporting and formal process to ensure that all participants, manufacturers, etc. are treated fairly and safely.

I have steered people to check out Appleseed events in the past. Until I hear that this is resolved and changes are made to ensure that all manufacturers are treated fairly, I will no longer do so.

I will also work to insist my local club range do a "temporary ban" on Appleseed events until they have their policies and procedures revised to ensure the safety of all.

 

[TAC]

THAT, right freekin there!!
And I'd include Golden Bullets on that No-Bang list as well...just as crappy.

Remington Golden Bullets (.22LR), are lose! If you hold the brass, you can wiggle the lead bullet. In addition to leaking some of the energy when fired, it allows humidity, oil, and other contaminants into the powder.

 

[mn_doggie]

Remington Golden Bullets (.22LR), are lose! If you hold the brass, you can wiggle the lead bullet. In addition to leaking some of the energy when fired, it allows humidity, oil, and other contaminants into the powder.

I've had great results in my 15-22 with Remington Golden Bullets.

Besides CCI Minimags, they are my second choice. I've purchased over 7000 rounds of them in the past few years.

 

[tomcatt51]

What is not an assumption is that I have an M&P 15/22, an older model, that is absolutely stock, and has had functioning problems. If it turns out to be appropriate, it will be sent to the manufacturer to be used as an exemplar to assist in the investigation. Nobody knows right now what that investigation will reveal. Have I done something wrong, to cause the problem? I don't think so, but it could to be. Remember, that's why it's called an investigation.

What "investigation"?

Who's conducting this "investigation"?

I hope Appleseed is "investigating" the Appleseed "instructor" that worked on the 15-22 prior to it going full auto?

He does state it was sent back to S&W after this event and after being returned he's still not happy and it "now sits in the vault as an expensive club". Sounds like there's nothing S&W can do that will make you guys happy.

What "function problems" are you now alleging your 15-22 has?

 

[SWMP15Pks]

Horrible!!!

I for one, am offering what little solace I can to any disgruntled MP15-22 owners, if you absolutely cannot bare to have that "Expensive club" taking up space in your safe. By golly send me a PM. I've got the perfect solution and an FFL address for you.

 

[cjt50]

I just looked at the Appleseed web sight and you would think that a statement like this would be very easy to find. Only place it even mentions the 15-22 is on the info portion of a "match" on the schedule page.

All the info we are reading are coming from blogs and other forums. I would like to see the actual statement from appleseed honestly and I can't find it.

Maybe someone with better search skills will have some luck.

 

[tomcatt51]

I would like to see the actual statement from appleseed honestly and I can't find it.

Maybe someone with better search skills will have some luck.

See post #8.

It appears this is a directive that was sent out to all Appleseed Instructors.

I guess they're waiting until shooters arrive at an Appleseed event to inform them that Appleseed has deemed their 15-22 too unsafe to shoot.

This is gonna get interesting...

 

[zymurgeist]

See post #8.

It appears this is a directive that was sent out to all Appleseed Instructors.

I guess they're waiting until shooters arrive at an Appleseed event to inform them that Appleseed has deemed their 15-22 too unsafe to shoot.

This is gonna get interesting...

You don't actually need a rifle to shoot Appleseed. Loaners are available. Ammunition on the other hand....

 

[tomcatt51]

You don't actually need a rifle to shoot Appleseed. Loaners are available. Ammunition on the other hand....

That's good but not the point.

How would you feel if you showed up to shoot an event and were told that Appleseed had deemed your (insert whatever brand/model) to be unsafe to shoot and you can't use it?

What would you be thinking?

 

[zymurgeist]

That's good but not the point.

How would you feel if you showed up to shoot an event and were told that Appleseed had deemed your (insert whatever brand/model) to be unsafe to shoot and you can't use it?

What would you be thinking?

Probably the same as all the other people who show up without the proper equipment. "Gee these Appleseed people are always willing to pitch in and help a fellow shooter." It happens at every event and people still go home happy.

 

[tomcatt51]

Probably the same as all the other people who show up without the proper equipment. "Gee these Appleseed people are always willing to pitch in and help a fellow shooter." It happens at every event and people still go home happy.

Sure... Sounds like you have an orange hat. Going to offer to sell me a bridge next?

 

[cjt50]

See post #8.

It appears this is a directive that was sent out to all Appleseed Instructors.

I guess they're waiting until shooters arrive at an Appleseed event to inform them that Appleseed has deemed their 15-22 too unsafe to shoot.

This is gonna get interesting...

Shame they won't post this on their web site in a prevalent place. Make ya wonder what is really going on..... I mean 4 listed issues out of probably hundreds (if not thousands) of these being used in these events.

Owell, Im happy with my copies as they have served me well!

 

[didactic]

Let me try again to clear up some muddy water, by answering some of the questions that have been asked. I'll do it in no particular order, and, to keep this post from being longer than it already is, without including quotes from posts throughout this thread.

The investigation is being conducted by the Appleseed Oversight Board Committee, or AOC. I don't know the names of all on that committee. I have been told that they have been in contact with Smith & Wesson, but do not know exactly what has been said, nor by whom, nor when a full public report will be issued. I do know that I personally trust their good faith in this process.

Regarding the instructor who performed unsuccessful field repairs on a 15/22 rifle, I don't know his qualifications, nor exactly what he did, nor even his name. Nor do I know if he has been investigated or disciplined in any way. But I don't expect that any disciplinary action would be made public, or should be. I haven't seen any specific directives regarding instructors doing field repairs, but that might be coming.

Regarding any other rifles that are restricted, the only other restriction I know of is on .17 HMR semi-automatics, due to problems that many have experienced with early bolt opening on some models. This isn't the time or place to go into that in detail.

Regarding what will happen if a shooter shows up with a 15/22, he will be offered a loaner rifle or given a refund. The temporary ban is listed on the Information Page, visible to anyone researching or pre-registering for an Appleseed shoot. Those already registered are being notified as quickly as practical, and offered a loaner to use if they need one, or a refund on any fees paid. I expect that those who do not get the word, or just show up as walk-ons without having checked the information, will be disappointed. We'll offer them a loaner rifle, if available, and an apology for their inconvenience. As well as a refund if they have pre-paid. I think that's fair and reasonable, and I don't know what else can be done in that situation. Some sort of public statement will probably be released in the future, but I cannot guarantee when, nor what it will contain.

Have any other rifles ever shown problems at an Appleseed shoot? Of course they have. Do we have statistical records on all the many tens of thousands of rifles used by many tens of thousands of shooters, at thousands of shoots held at hundreds of venues, over the last ten years? And the rates of malfunctions for all, or even most, of the rifle models used? No, we don't.

That would be a monumental data-management task, certainly beyond our abilities during the early years of the program and probably beyond our abilities now. I don't think the effort would be justified. We're not trying to prove a case in court, or shut down Smith & Wesson, or have 15/22's banned, or any such.

We just have the informal observations of experienced folks, that this model seems to have more frequent, and potentially more serious problems, than other models. And we have had an injury, blessedly not a serious one, to a shooter. It seemed reasonable to our governing board that a more detailed investigation, and an interim ban on use of that model, was reasonable and appropriate. Better to err on the side of caution. And, personally, I agree with that decision.

Regarding this ban as an anti-black rifle move is just nor correct. See my response in Post #51. I stand by that, and can only add that I have seen hundreds of shooters use AR-15's and variants, AK-47's and variants, SKS's, Garands, M-1a's, FN-FAL's, etc. used at Appleseeds. The only rifle affected by this temporary ban is the S&W M&P 15/22.

Regarding the suggestion that a malfunctioning rifle be confiscated for a gunsmith inspection, I don't see how Appleseed would have the authority to do that. As disappointed as I would be if turned away from a shooting event for a disallowed rifle, I would be a hundred times as enraged if I went to an event, had a rifle problem, and the event operators took my rifle!

Regarding the problems with my personal 15/22, I have an older model that had a relatively low round count. It is absolutely out-of-the-box stock, except that I mounted a scope on it and a forward sling swivel. Using CCI Blazer 40-grain HV RNL ammo, which has performed well for me in other rifles, I began experiencing frequent misfires, maybe 1 out of every 20 to 40 rounds, more or less. Manually ejected rounds seemed to have light firing pin strikes. I also have had the rifle "double" twice, which led me to take it out of service. I have not yet had time to take it to a gunsmith or return it to Smith & Wesson for check out and possible repair, but expect to do that shortly. I am not expert enough to confidently diagnose the problem, but there were no apparent loose pins or other obvious causes, such as excessive fouling buildup in the action or chamber.

This will not answer all questions, but I hope it will put some of them to rest. Thanks to everyone for their understanding and patience. I'm confident that this will all be worked out, in due course.

 

[tomcatt51]

Shame they won't post this on their web site in a prevalent place. Make ya wonder what is really going on.....

Owell, Im happy with my copies and they have served me well!

The nicest thing I can say is this does seem a bit odd and doesn't add up. Bob Owens, the author of the Bearing Arms posting of the Appleseed 15-22 ban decree and an Appleseed Instructor also posted this: "The fact that a national rifle training program feels compelled to ban the entire line of M&P firearms because of these issues is disconcerting, to put it mildly". I agree and would call that a huge understatement.

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/0...appleseed-events-battery-run-away-discharges/

As to 15-22s, I'm happy with mine as well. I've been shooting NSSF Rimfire Challenge matches with mine for 3 yrs now. Their performance has been excellent. I bought them (I bought two, the second one as a back-up) rather than Ruger 10-22s because of what I'd been seeing as an RO. The 15-22s consistently ran, unlike the 10-22s I was seeing consistently dealing with magazine related problems..

 

[tomcatt51]

Just my assumptions, because I am a line instructor and not at the program leadership level.

Does this still apply? Credibility is certainly becoming an issue...

 

[Rick_A]

Banning them all over one injury and a few malfunctions seems brash.

Weak J springs in the hammer have been an issue for some time.

Some ejectors have required tweaking. Some extractors have ejected...some attributable to ammunition of dubious quality/case blowouts.

Above that most issues seen with AR's in general are owner induced. Many folks have a fascination with making things "better" as cheaply as possible. Trigger springs are not a good way to improve trigger pulls with a rimfire. Aftermarket triggers often require some fitting to have a properly functioning safety. Some require anti-walk pins. Above all, folks making minor changes like furniture lose springs and detents regularly.

On the one hand, these guns have had a few known issues. Most guns will reveal such patterns over time...especially rimfires, it seems. They're a bit more sensitive to minor tuning changes.

On the other hand the decision to ban them altogether seems like a bit of an over reaction.

Before firing any rifle the shooter should know how to perform a function check. Before competing a shooter should have the basic wherewithal to test fire a gun that will be used in competition.

 

[RedNeck Jim]

Regarding the suggestion that a malfunctioning rifle be confiscated for a gunsmith inspection, I don't see how Appleseed would have the authority to do that. As disappointed as I would be if turned away from a shooting event for a disallowed rifle, I would be a hundred times as enraged if I went to an event, had a rifle problem, and the event operators took my rifle!

If you have the authority to ban a gun for perceived safety issues then you could have the authority to temporarily confiscate such unsafe weapon, if written into your rules. If I had a stock gun that was so unsafe, then I'd have no issue with some experts checking it out. If I had modified my gun so as to be unsafe, then yep, I'd be enraged for someone to prove what I did wrong.

Once again, there is only one way, just one, to prove if a very customizable model of gun is unsafe... TEST THE UNSAFE GUNS. If the gun was customized, then Appleseed would need to change their rules regarding such guns. If and only if you determine this is a continuing issue with stock guns, do you ban that model & contact the manufacturer.

Is this not common sense?

 

[rotlex]

I've had great results in my 15-22 with Remington Golden Bullets.

Besides CCI Minimags, they are my second choice. I've purchased over 7000 rounds of them in the past few years.

Same experience here with the golden bullets. Honestly, I've gone through a number of the 1400 round buckets with little or no issues at all. Can't say as much for Federal or even CCI at times.