It appears that there's a problem with the 15/22!

[Ed Fowler]

What kind of ammo were you shooting when you had the "out of battery"
problem?

 

[tomcatt51]

Yeah, except for the 15-22 that I purchased, took to the range the 2nd day that I had it, had an OOB which blew out my extractor.

It happens. It happens with other brands / models also. It definitely appears to be more common since the great ammo shortage and the lessened QC our 22LR ammo seems to receiving.

Glad to hear S&W took care of you promptly and professionally.

 

[Newhouse]

Just saw this artcle:
Smith & Wesson's Most Popular Rifle Has a Big Problem -- The Motley Fool

 

[GhostMutt]

This says nothing that we have not already read....except that it puts it forward in an even worse light than the Appleseed memo. At least they identified the few instances...this is nothing more than a blog style report and it adds nothing new to this situation.

In fact the only thing that will add anything to this situation is a press release from Smith & Wesson regarding these allegations against their 'flawed' rifle design.

We all must play the waiting game....but as has been stated earlier....the reputation of the 15-22 has been tarnished, purposely or accidental, it matters not either way.

Now either S&W recall every 15-22 in circulation or Appleseed issue a retraction of their condemnation of the rifle.

Meanwhile i'll be shooting my heavily modded 15-22 and enjoying every second of it.

 

[tomcatt51]

Helluva can of worms Project Appleseed has opened. I'm not a lawyer but the term "libel" comes to mind.

 

[mn_doggie]

Yup all those anecdotal OOP, squibs, etc. by other firearms that have been reported but didn't lead to bans are gonna be hard to explain by a group that is so very "safety orientated"

Anyone wanna bet that some communications have come out from Appleseed HQ telling the red, orange hats and others to stop posting.....

 

[josywales]

Is it true that S&W has been replacing these fire control groups with better steel?

 

[Ed Fowler]

I strongly believe the "OOB" are ammo problems rather then firearm problems.

 

[Newhouse]

This says nothing that we have not already read....except that it puts it forward in an even worse light than the Appleseed memo. At least they identified the few instances...this is nothing more than a blog style report and it adds nothing new to this situation.

In fact the only thing that will add anything to this situation is a press release from Smith & Wesson regarding these allegations against their 'flawed' rifle design.

We all must play the waiting game....but as has been stated earlier....the reputation of the 15-22 has been tarnished, purposely or accidental, it matters not either way.

Now either S&W recall every 15-22 in circulation or Appleseed issue a retraction of their condemnation of the rifle.

Meanwhile i'll be shooting my heavily modded 15-22 and enjoying every second of it.

Yes, nothing new that we have not read in the forum. I did not search for the article but came across it in the Yahoo news page this morning.

 

[mn_doggie]

Is it true that S&W has been replacing these fire control groups with better steel?

To quote someone we seen in the news all the time recently: "What difference does it make?"

Is there a proven problem with the metal?

Or is this one of those questions like "have you stopped beating your spouse?

 

[Andyk]

It seems to me if this were a valid problem, it would be showing up at the hundreds of matches these guns are shot at every weekend. But it only seems to be a problem with appleseed (in MI?). Speed shooters push their guns hard and I would think these problems would manifest themselves more often there as opposed to someone slowfiring for precision. 10 shots in 2 minutes vs 10 in 5 or 6 seconds. I trust my 15-22s as much as any gun I own. 500 rounds through it today w/o issue. I wouldn't let my grand daughter shoot them if I didn't fully trust it

 

[josywales]

To quote someone we seen in the news all the time recently: "What difference does it make?"

Is there a proven problem with the metal?

Or is this one of those questions like "have you stopped beating your spouse?

I'm not sure what you're saying, but it makes a big difference. If S&W is upgrading the metal, there would be a reason for that, so I'm curious.

Remington ignored their crappy 22 ammo issue and put shooters at risk. I wouldn't use a bucket of Thunderbolts for an anchor. Could care less if they fixed the issue or not, they waited too long IMO.

As far as trusting guns enough to let my grand kids shoot them. I don't fully trust anything man made. Stuff happens and the best thing we can do is teach new shooters how to handle guns when it does happen. "Daughter, if your gun goes full auto, be prepared, keep the muzzle pointed down range and wait for me to assist." "You could get burned with hot brass. DON'T turn around. Suck it up, maintain gun control and wait for me to assist." "If anything goes wrong, you don't need to tell me. I'm watching. Just keep the gun pointed downrange and I will assist." Things like that.

Respect for firearm also plays a role and we have to hope we're successful in teaching that. My first deer, I fell 5 feet out of a tree after I shot it. I was so damn excited, I got tangle up hopping down. When I landed, I still had my rifle. Safety on, butt stock in the ground and muzzle toward the sky. Why? Because of proper training? Not really, although it had been explained to me in our hunter's ed class. That gun was handled safely because I loved guns and knew there was no freakin way anything was going to happen to "my" rifle. I can't imagine ever letting a gun of mine just drop to the ground. That might come back to haunt me...

 

[garyez]

Owned my 15-22 for about 6 months now and after reading all the posts on this thread, I'm not really concerned about shooting it because

1) The ranges I go to do not allow rapid fire (must be at least 2 secs. between shots) and the NRA approved ROs strictly enforce it.

2) My 15-22 has only stock parts, except for the VG and red dot, and they seem to be working just fine. There are many ways for home gunsmiths to modify this rifle and too much of that makes for safety issues.

So I can understand why there is a ban on the rifle by one shooting group for legal liability and insurance reasons, but until an RO at one of my ranges tells me to stop shooting the 15-22, I'm not going to worry about it.

 

[Brian in Oregon]

...If I recall correctly the owners manual specifically states not to use Remington Thunderbolt ammo in the M&P 15-22. There is a list of reccomended ammo in the owners manual.

While I have shot many cases of Rem Thunderbolt, I seldom used it in semi-autos because it was unreliable and filthy. Generally shot it from revolvers that had heavy firing pin strikes. Even then, some Thunderbolts would not fire. My opinion is Thunderbolts are lousy ammo, and I'm surprised more manufacturers have not specifically excluded it in their manuals.

This sounds all nice but how is S&W supposed to formally investigate these issues if they didn't either confiscate those specific guns for testing or take detailed statements from the gun owner regarding if the gun had been customized?

As has been noted, there are legal issues that would preclude confiscating some else's private property. However, in the case of any injury, detailed statements should have been taken.

Appleseed is just playing it smart.If someone is injured at one of their events,they will be sued along with S&W.

While lawsuits are indeed a major consideration for policies anymore, consider this: Most safety glasses DO NOT protect the eye from objects coming from the sides. Bits of brass and parts like extractors could wind up in someone's eye. I think Appleseed is playing it safe and is probably doing the right thing, but frankly perhaps they should go further and investigate whether safety glasses protecting from foreign objects from the sides should be required.

This does kinda reek of lawyers and covering their rear by throwing S&W under the bus...

On the other hand, it could simply be a case of being overly cautious. A major injury like getting an eye put out or worse makes for bad press for everyone. It's a fact that some gun ranges on leased land have been closed due to landlords (private or public) finding any excuse to close them. I doubt Appleseed owns the ranges they operate for these events, so they have to consider losing access to them as well.

I just hope this issue is not just a fabrication, in an attempt to keep the "black rifles" out of the hands of our youth.

I actually know some pro-gun people with that attitude. They tell me they serve no purpose, and are not "sportsman like".

This temporary ban did not include the Colt M4 rimfire clone, the CMMG rimfire AR15, Ceiner kits, the Ruger Vaguely-Resembles-An-AR15 gun, etc. So it's not about "black guns".

Your second comment is spot on. I have to shake my head over Fudds who don't seem to understand that it's NOT OK to ban the other guy's guns in a misguided attempt to appease the unappeaseable.

...Therein lies the crux of this issue....they only decided to enforce the 'temporary ban' after someone was injured.

When are they supposed to act? After someone loses an eye? After someone gets killed?* Never?


(* Not inferring the 15-22 problem is that serious, just as a general statement.)

Going further, I see a contradiction forming here. Some are decrying the temporary ban because of a handful of incidents, while others are saying these problems are very common. Which is it? A rare freak issue or common?

And, some who are quick to absolve the 15-22 and S&W are just as quick to blame the owners.

While Appleseed should be documenting all firearms related injuries if for no other reason that having fresh facts for legal purposes, they don't have the manpower to document every FTE, OOB, etc. On the other hand, S&W would be in a position to know what common repairs are being done on guns returned to them.

Modified guns. There is no indication these guns were modified or not. Pure speculation at this point.

Inept repairs. Superficially that appears to be the case with the "qualified instructor", who may or may not be a "qualified gunsmith". Apples and oranges. Was he qualified to work on someone else's gun? AR15 fire control groups are a roll of the dice for replacing parts. Most of the time everything is within spec and tolerance and works fine. However, there are also plenty of times when problems occur. Doubling is a common problem, for example, with parts at opposite ends of tolerance. This was especially an issue back in the days of reverse engineered lower receivers.

I don't have a dog in this fight. Don't own a 15-22, though I've shot them. Too much plastic and was not impressed with the accuracy, so I went with a CMMG. However, I did find the 15-22 to be utterly reliable and it cycled most subsonic ammo well, making it a good suppressor host. (I'd revisit the 15-22 if it was known if the Performance Center model has better accuracy, but that's a subject for a different thread.)

 

[GhostMutt]

When are they supposed to act? After someone loses an eye? After someone gets killed?* Never?

Perhaps they could curtail many of these issues by not cramming shooters on the line or maybe something as simple as dividers in between shooters which is something that pretty much every range i've ever shot on has....those that didn't had at least 2 metres between shooters.

Granted you are never going to give a 100% guarantee that nothing is ever going to happen, we are dealing with mechanisms and mechanisms malfunction. However as an organiser of a range, your number one priority must be ensure to the best of your abilities that all safety aspects are covered, regardless of hassle or cost.

One rifles malfunction has caused an injury and an injury that could have been prevented had better safety measures been in place.

As the saying goes....'Prevention is better than cure'

 

[Kayback]

Owned my 15-22 for about 6 months now and after reading all the posts on this thread, I'm not really concerned about shooting it because

1) The ranges I go to do not allow rapid fire (must be at least 2 secs. between shots) and the NRA approved ROs strictly enforce it.
.

What sort of pansy assed range limits you with a SEMI AUTO to 30rpm? I can do better than that with a bolt action.

 

[tomcatt51]

On the other hand, it could simply be a case of being overly cautious.

Going further, I see a contradiction forming here. Some are decrying the temporary ban because of a handful of incidents, while others are saying these problems are very common. Which is it? A rare freak issue or common?

AR15 fire control groups are a roll of the dice for replacing parts.

Reading the posts of the Appleseed "instructors" that responded here (but are suddenly absent...) it's clear that OOBs etc when they occurred with other rifles didn't result in a ban, apparently being dealt with on a case by case basis. It APPEARS the only difference here is that a girl ended up bleeding, though it seems the injury was minor. I'll let the Project Appleseed pic of shooters on the line elbow to elbow speak for itself.

Generic AR-15 trigger groups are about as idiot proof as it gets, they seem to hold up and function well even with slidefire stocks... There can be problems when folks start "improving" them, reducing sear engagement etc. However issues after being "improved" applies equally to the other brands / models also.

I haven't seen, or heard of, a 15-22 doubling much less going full auto except in the Project Appleseed decree where THEY SAY one of their "instructors" worked on it before it went full auto and an a Project Appleseed "instructor" saying (on this forum) his had, only saying that well into the discussion...

Anyone had their 15-22 (with stock, un-modified trigger group) double or go full auto? Not "I read...", actual first hand knowledge.

If there was / is a real issue (and not just Project Appleseed doing a CYA) I'd think it would be showing up at other events / ranges and we don't seem to be seeing it.

 

[GhostMutt]

Memory does not have a delete button.

I had not noticed, have some of the responses on this thread been deleted?
Why on earth would they do that?
Who on earth told them to do that?
I hate it when that happens it's like your ranting at yourself....
The first sign of madness is talking to one's self...
The second is answering one's self

 

[zymurgeist]

Perhaps they could curtail many of these issues by not cramming shooters on the line or maybe something as simple as dividers in between shooters which is something that pretty much every range i've ever shot on has....those that didn't had at least 2 metres between shooters.

Granted you are never going to give a 100% guarantee that nothing is ever going to happen, we are dealing with mechanisms and mechanisms malfunction. However as an organiser of a range, your number one priority must be ensure to the best of your abilities that all safety aspects are covered, regardless of hassle or cost.

One rifles malfunction has caused an injury and an injury that could have been prevented had better safety measures been in place.

As the saying goes....'Prevention is better than cure'

Three position course of fire, instructors need to be able to watch everyone on the line, and they don't get to build their own ranges. It would be nice but it's not economically feasible.

 

[Brian in Oregon]

...Generic AR-15 trigger groups are about as idiot proof as it gets, they seem to hold up and function well even with slidefire stocks...

While as a generality that's true, the problem is there are still issues when mixing parts from different supplier. Especially some Brand X companies who have been reknown for reverse engineered or substandard parts. Or replacing some parts but unwittingly leaving worn out parts that visually seem to be OK. Ask yourself this... If trigger groups are idiot proof, why did the 15-22 run away after the instructor tinkered with it?