It appears that there's a problem with the 15/22!

[zymurgeist]

What are you wanting them to tell you?

What question(s) did you ask?

Just curious what you're expecting.

I expect S&W to say it's an overabundance of caution on Appleseed's part and not a defect in the 15-22. Which is what any company would say right up until there's a recall, or not. Then in the extremely unlikely event of a recall I expect them to say that it's being done in an overabundance of caution not because of any widespread failure of the 15-22. That's just the way things go in our litigious society.

 

[tomcatt51]

I expect S&W to say it's an overabundance of caution on Appleseed's part and not a defect in the 15-22. Which is what any company would say right up until there's a recall, or not. Then in the extremely unlikely event of a recall I expect them to say that it's being done in an overabundance of caution not because of any widespread failure of the 15-22. That's just the way things go in our litigious society.

So now you're speaking for coolcobramatt? You're branching out from just being a Project Appleseed shill?

 

[zymurgeist]

So now you're speaking for coolcobramatt? You're branching out from just being a Project Appleseed shill?

I speak for myself. The use of the pronoun "I" makes that obvious. I just don't push an agenda or believe people who disagree are somehow evil. You keep grinding that axe and you're just going to wind up with a lot of dust.

 

[SWMP15Pks]

Back out of this thread, read down a few pages. You'll see that extractor malfunctions, oob malfunctions, and doubles/misfires are actually common with the factory new 15-22.

A quick perusal of this board through page 5 shows lots of different owners, and different guns all having similar issues, so I find it hard to believe anyone who says these are uncommon issues and blame the FUDDS. Many of the members posting here (questioning the integrity of those who would dare question the 15-22s safety record and reliability), reply in other threads about how to fix those same issues with a new extractor, firing pin, FCG, "blue springs" etc.

If it is enough of an issue that the 15-22 board is full of reports of it, and the aftermarket solutions there to; then I'd say Appleseed is more than a little justified. And since the board here is indeed full of the same kind of reports then I really am starting to think it might be time to take a more serious look at a possible safety issue, and maybe Appleseed is spot on after all.

 

[ACP230]

I remember complaints about rounds firing out of battery and other problems with .22 M&P rifles here on this board. The rifle had
recently been released and a lot of them had to go back to S&W to be fixed. The posts are probably still in the archives.

 

[Kayback]

I remember complaints about rounds firing out of battery and other problems with .22 M&P rifles here on this board. The rifle had
recently been released and a lot of them had to go back to S&W to be fixed. The posts are probably still in the archives.

The OOB issue was the reason for the "recommended ammunition" list and the improved blue springs.

I've had ONE OOB on my 15-22 in the 20k so rounds I have put through mine.

I had 2 OOB detonations in one mag in my Colt .22 the other day.

Some people will go their entire shooting career without having them, others will. Nature of the beast when dealing with rimfires.

 

[buzzkillbob]

Back out of this thread, read down a few pages. You'll see that extractor malfunctions, oob malfunctions, and doubles/misfires are actually common with the factory new 10-22.

A quick perusal of this board through page 5 shows lots of different owners, and different guns all having similar issues, so I find it hard to believe anyone who says these are uncommon issues and blame the FUDDS. Many of the members posting here (questioning the integrity of those who would dare question the 10-22s safety record and reliability), reply in other threads about how to fix those same issues with a new extractor, firing pin, FCG, "blue springs" etc.

If it is enough of an issue that the 10-22 board is full of reports of it, and the aftermarket solutions there to; then I'd say Appleseed is more than a little justified. And since the board here is indeed full of the same kind of reports then I really am starting to think it might be time to take a more serious look at a possible safety issue, and maybe Appleseed is spot on after all.

I'm not entirely sure you know which platform you're talking about any more...

 

[GhostMutt]

Back out of this thread, read down a few pages. You'll see that extractor malfunctions, oob malfunctions, and doubles/misfires are actually common with the factory new 10-22.

Heh heh...I totally agree......the 10/22 does have lots of issues the ones at my local club constantly misfire and stovepipe. They are a pain...Ruger should do something about the 10/22. However saying that, there are a few custom Ruger 10/22's at our club that run fine, but the owners have put a lot of aftermarket parts in them.

My 15-22 however has seen no problems, that were not ammo related. I suppose that is the nature of the beast when dealing with firearms. Some get lucky, some don't. Some injure people, some don't, some get banned some don't.

Still waiting for S&W to respond.

 

[Ed Fowler]

I have been shooting 22 rim fire since the 40's, never an "OOB", a few bullets stuck in the barrel but this was rare. Now in the past two years I have blown up three firearms, two with Federal and one with CCI.

Both Federal and CCI blamed the firearms makers and from what I read on this forum many consumers take the ammo makers explanation and blame the firearm makers. Not once did they take any responsibility for the wreck, say anything like "I am sorry, was anyone hurt?" Just a request for me to send all the ammo in question to them so they could check it out. Naturally it was all "In Speck".

Federal Auto Match has been good ammo for me, this last box is the worst I have ever fired. The "OOB" photographed in post #213 is the one that blew up my S&W Victor for the second time. The pistol is now back home to Smith & Wesson for repairs for the second time.

I find that now I am afraid to shoot Federal or CCI from any of my quality firearms.

I get the idea that the secondary market is doing a good business "fixing" problems with Factory firearms. Maybe that is part of the idea??

With all the problems, why not mention of who made the ammo? Photos of the wrecks? Where is SAMMIE (sp) while all this is happening?

We have been a long time short of ammo, now it seems they have caught up with the demand, but at what cost?

I feel the time is ripe for one ammo company to come up with some good ammo at an honest price and put some pressure on the big boys.

 

[zymurgeist]

Heh heh...I totally agree......the 10/22 does have lots of issues the ones at my local club constantly misfire and stovepipe. They are a pain...Ruger should do something about the 10/22. However saying that, there are a few custom Ruger 10/22's at our club that run fine, but the owners have put a lot of aftermarket parts in them.

Yeah that's just nonsense. The Ruger 10/22 is one of the most reliable semi auto rim fire rifles out there. There are decades of experience by thousands of owners backing that up. Like wise the Marlin 60. Is the 15-22 just as reliable? Maybe, it's got a great track record.

 

[GhostMutt]

Yeah that's just nonsense. The Ruger 10/22 is one of the most reliable semi auto rim fire rifles out there. There are decades of experience by thousands of owners backing that up. Like wise the Marlin 60. Is the 15-22 just as reliable? Maybe, it's got a great track record.

Wait on, i talk from experience...as range officer at my local range we have four 10/22 club guns...i constantly have to clear stovepipes and have to instruct new shooters what to do when there is a FTF. We actually appreciate that this happens as new starters get to experience what to do when a FTE or FTF happen. THIS does happen with 10/22's (an they are cleaned and well looked after) They never experience those issues with our bolt actions....mmm just the Rugers.

You seem to like gross generalisations....according to the Appleseed report 4 rifles......four.....yes that's 1....2...3....4 out of how many tens of thousands of 15-22 that are in circulation,.......4 have had issues, yet you get very touchy and start questioning my experiences, when I mention the four rifles that happen to be 10/22's that i have witnessed give constant issues.

Cognitive Dissonance....You cannot accept that Ruger 10/22's experience issues. Apparently one even had a OOB at an Appleseed...but it didn't injure anyone so that makes it all okay

Or do you just really hate the 15-22? if so then why on earth did you join the forum?

[drops mic]

 

[zymurgeist]

The 10/22 has been in constant production since 1964. If there were something wrong with it would that be possible? If you're having constant problems with them it's not the design. Most common cause of stove piping in a 10/22 is a worn out extractor. Anyone with any experience with them should know that. Well maintained bolt actions will always, always, be more reliable than any semi automatic rim fire, 15-22 included. Especially anything blow back operated.

Appleseed doesn't care about your experience or mine. They care about maintaining their reputation for safety. Their game their rules and getting bent out of shape about how they're saying not nice things about your Boy Barbie is just silly.

There's no cognitive dissonance. I know how the 10-22 fails and why. I've owned one them for forty years. I can also tell you the most common cause of failure to feed in an early AR-7, other than a bad magazine, is a broken firing pin. I've owned dozens of .22 rim fires over the years. The 15-22 is relatively new to me.

Bad assumptions lead to bad conclusions. I don't hate the 15-22. I have liked mine fine. I'm just not going to complain because a group of volunteer people who do a great job don't have full confidence in it at all times. I'll wait, and either they'll find a problem or they won't.

 

[GhostMutt]

Appleseed doesn't care about your experience or mine. They care about maintaining their reputation for safety. Their game their rules and getting bent out of shape about how they're saying not nice things about your Boy Barbie is just silly.

I don't care what a group of Volunteers say about....what did you call it your Boy Barbie....lol...i always preferred lego.

I do care about a group of volunteers who label a rifle unsafe, which i have no problem with if the individual rifle concerned was unsafe...like the 'runaway appleseed volunteer worked on' rifle, that was unsafe!....but the resulting injury from a blown extractor or OOB (which happens on pretty much every semi auto rimfire) are individual occurrences.

That i have stated very often on this thread could have been easily prevented IF the volunteers implemented adequate safety procedures....it seems to me that the way they cram the firing line and sometimes have dividers but most times not because of cost and hassle, was just an accident waiting to happen.

I see this as Project Deflection.....don't blame the provider, don't blame the ammo, don't make a note if the individual rifle had been user modified....just blame the rifle ALL of them.

The lions share of blame lies squarely at the door of the volunteers themselves who should be providing a safer environment...knowing that bad things can happen and when you think they wont...they will.
Prevention is better than cure.

 

[zymurgeist]

The lions share of blame lies squarely at the door of the volunteers themselves who should be providing a safer environment...knowing that bad things can happen and when you think they wont...they will.
Prevention is better than cure.

It's both impossible and unnecessary. If you knew anything about Appleseed you would know why.

 

[Ed Fowler]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostMutt View Post
The lions share of blame lies squarely at the door of the volunteers themselves who should be providing a safer environment...knowing that bad things can happen and when you think they wont...they will.
Prevention is better than cure.
It's both impossible and unnecessary. If you knew anything about Appleseed you would know why.
Reply With Quote

WOW!

 

[SWMP15Pks]

I'm not entirely sure you know which platform you're talking about any more...

Very glad you pointed that out. Edited the auto-correct in my brain. Thank you. Re-read if you need to gain understanding of my intent.

 

[Majorlk]

The OOB issue was the reason for the "recommended ammunition" list and the improved blue springs.

I've had ONE OOB on my 15-22 in the 20k so rounds I have put through mine.

I had 2 OOB detonations in one mag in my Colt .22 the other day.

Some people will go their entire shooting career without having them, others will. Nature of the beast when dealing with rimfires.

I'll make a couple of observations ...

In over 50 years of shooting ( something on the order of close to a million rounds ) I have yet to experience an OOB. Every one that I am personally acquainted with could be traced to a filthy firearm. Just my personal experience ...

 

[mn_doggie]

It's both impossible and unnecessary. If you knew anything about Appleseed you would know why.

Must be a secret handshake and password involved....

 

[Kayback]

I'll make a couple of observations ...

In over 50 years of shooting ( something on the order of close to a million rounds ) I have yet to experience an OOB. Every one that I am personally acquainted with could be traced to a filthy firearm. Just my personal experience ...

Well my Colt is now a collectors item so it is kept pristine and only shot occasionally. It has been shot dirty as hell in the past but this time it wasn't.

My 15-22 has been shot dirty as hell. I can't recall the state it was in when it had its OOB. It was fairly near the beginning of the session. I think I have it on video somewhere.

My 15-22 eats a steady diet of 555. While I am currently burning through my stockpile as it is hard to find recently the vast majority of what I have shot is 555 HVHP. So far I have found one instance of this:

Enough to cause damage? I dunno. But it highlights that shooting, a sport which revolves around hand held explosions with pressures up to 50 000psi and 2000+ joules of energy. Sure the .22LR is on the low end of that but is also uses thinner cases, actions held closed by springs and sensitive ammunition which can detonate easily.

FWIW I heard of a .40S&W having an OOB detonation this weekend. Numerous people reported similar with everything from .38Super, .45ACP and some 9mms. Cause seems to be ejector strikes on emptying FTEs. One person mentioned they still have shrapenel in their hand from their .40 Para Ordinance race gun doing the same.

There is a reason protective equipment is mandatory at most ranges.

If Appleseed do crowd the lines like it has been reported, they need to rethink their MO.

 

[TomAnderson]

This is a joke, right?

You posted in that thread you weren't Appleseed leadership.

Turns out, you run Michigan and are in charge of quality control?

I have no use for liars who sneak in the shadows. Post in the thread if you have something to say.


From a message received:

Tom,

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy your experience with Appleseed. Can you tell me a little more about the event you attended? When and where was the event held?

One of my responsibilities in Appleseed is Quality Control, and it sounds like some of our instructors were not up to standard. A Shoot Boss should not speak like that to the shooters. While we encourage them to do a "call to action," it should not berate or belittle anyone.

Thanks in advance for your response.