Using rifle powder in a pistol

[buck460XVR]

It's fine buck, as once said, "a man's got to know his limitations".

...and a handloader needs to know the limitations of his components. What just works and what works well are two completely different things.

Go ahead be afraid, there are many like you. Never do this, never do that, we get it. If i had 8# of 4198, or sim, i could make it work in the 500.

As I said before, it ain't about being afraid. It's about being practical and reasonable. You are so busy blowing your own horn that you continue to miss this. I too could make IMR/H4198 work in the.500. Since I have reloaded for it and a .460 for a dozen years, I even know where I would start. Since it's one of the fastest rifle powders available to us, it should be the one that would give the best performance. Still, odds are, the outcome would still be below the performance of appropriate handgun powders. THE reason I suggest against it.

Did the OP say he has 4198 on hand? Nope. Did he tell us what powder he did have? nope. Just "I've got lots of rifle powder, and would like to use some in my S&W 500. How does one go about this if there is no load data for this?" While you continue to hammer home that he can do it, and that you could do it easily, you have given him no other direction other than, "a man must know his limitations." and to let us all know how fearless and brave you are. At least those of us telling him to get something appropriate were trying to help and not just inflate our ego.

There is no real powder shortage. Last time I went to my LGS there was plenty of H110/W296 and IMR4227 on the shelves, at a price point lower than IMR4198. Gives better performance at a lower price, kinda a no-brainer. The .500 has been around a long time and is not a wildcat. Folks have been experimenting with it for a long time. I remember when there was little info for the .460 and .500 and folks indeed thought rifle powder would be more appropriate because of the pressures they operate at. Now that both calibers have been around and the experimentation done, one finds Magnum handgun powders the ones in the recipes. Not only in powder/bullet manufacturers manuals but other reloading sources such as GunLoads and The Reloaders Nest. Wonder why that is? Satisfactory performance vs poor performance. not just because it ain't been tried. You have never loaded for the .500 yet feel you have the expertise to give advice. You claim you reload other magnum handgun calibers. Do you routinely use rifle powders for them, as opposed to those powders already recognized to perform well?

The only reasonable answer to the OPs original question is to get powder more appropriate for .500 Mag and try and make the best ammo he can, as opposed to telling him to use what he has on hand and hope.

 

[Wise_A]

No, Buck! We're yellow-bellied cowards, is what we are!

 

[fredj338]

Well i was perusing the accurate website, looking for some 6.8 data, when what do i find, aa1680 for the 500. Hmm, if 1680, a rifle powder, can be used, so could several other sim burn rate choices. So yes, some rifle powders are suitable by the "experts" opinions. Then some of is already knew that. Carry on.

 

[rwsmith]

I don't think it's......

I don't think it's 'yes' this powder is suitable so we'll publish it and 'no' the powder isn't suitable so we won't publish it. Some powders may be borderline useful, but not as much as the powders they publish due to limited space. Again, SR 4759 is a rifle power that is suitable for pistol loads, but few people are going to publish that. It just doesn't have any advantage over powders that were MADE to be pistol powders.

It's silly to think that they test every combination, but they test the ones that have a good chance of performing well. They just don't give the results of everything.

It is a LOT easier if you can find data published by a powder or bullet company, but sometimes, you can't.

 

[Wise_A]

Well i was perusing the accurate website, looking for some 6.8 data, when what do i find, aa1680 for the 500. Hmm, if 1680, a rifle powder, can be used, so could several other sim burn rate choices. So yes, some rifle powders are suitable by the "experts" opinions. Then some of is already knew that. Carry on.

Nobody said they couldn't. Some of the powders used in .44 Magnum could be properly classed as rifle powders. Most of the popular target pistol powders are sold as "shotgun" powders.

The operative words aren't "rifle powder", they're "powder I have no data for".

However, in regards to this case--

https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Burn Rates - 2015-2016.pdf

OP's powder -- IMR 7828, #136
Your powder -- AA 1680, #69

Powder's cheap. Data is easy to get. Powder companies can be reached by telephone.

Sure, you can work without published data, but why bother?

 

[rwsmith]

Will powder companies give......

...

Powder's cheap. Data is easy to get. Powder companies can be reached by telephone.

Sure, you can work without published data, but why bother?

Do powder companies give load data over the phone? I would have thought in this day in time of lawsuits the answer would be, "Don't do anything that isn't in the book."

 

[AveragEd]

Powder companies test lots of combinations they don't publish for one reason or another. I have called and received information on numerous occasions because the recipe in which I was interested was one that they didn't publish because they felt it would not be popular.

Ed

 

[Wise_A]

Do powder companies give load data over the phone? I would have thought in this day in time of lawsuits the answer would be, "Don't do anything that isn't in the book."

If you call them up and ask them why Powder X isn't listed for a particular cartridge, they'll sometimes tell you, "It likes to blow up when you put it in that."

Other times, as Ed points out, they'll tell you "We figured nobody would want to."

Which always sort've blew my mind. I can see not putting everything under the sun in a printed manual, as paper costs money. But why not in online sources?

 

[Practical]

I don't reload, but I have learned from this thread to be careful if I do.

A lot of people probably are careful, but some here and other sites are going to blow up guns and maybe hurt themselves.

Maybe the original poster was ignorant or a troll. But so are a lot of posters or they are overconfident which might be more dangerous with a little knowledge.

 

[fredj338]

I don't reload, but I have learned from this thread to be careful if I do.

A lot of people probably are careful, but some here and other sites are going to blow up guns and maybe hurt themselves.

Maybe the original poster was ignorant or a troll. But so are a lot of posters or they are overconfident which might be more dangerous with a little knowledge.

Pretty bold, broad brush painting for a guy that admits to knowing nothing about reloading?

 

[fredj338]

Nobody said they couldn't. Some of the powders used in .44 Magnum could be properly classed as rifle powders. Most of the popular target pistol powders are sold as "shotgun" powders.

The operative words aren't "rifle powder", they're "powder I have no data for".

However, in regards to this case--

https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Burn Rates - 2015-2016.pdf

OP's powder -- IMR 7828, #136
Your powder -- AA 1680, #69

Powder's cheap. Data is easy to get. Powder companies can be reached by telephone.

Sure, you can work without published data, but why bother?

Now you are being a bit dishonest. The original question, you may have forgotten:

"I've got lots of rifle powder, and would like to use some in my S&W 500. How does one go about this if there is no load data for this"?

Later he asks about 7828, but the earlier responses were all "no, stick to the book, danger, danger". Some of us know that you can use some rifle powders safely w/ mixed results & stated that, but rebuked as being unsafe, which os how the whole safety issue got pushed to the front. The fact one has a bunch of powder is reason enough to ask & maybe experiment with. The point of the entire threads beginning.

 

[Wise_A]

You ain't lived until you've been lectured on being over-careful by a guy with one eye. Got an earful, and after he left, I turned to the shop owner and asked, "How long you known 'em?"

"'Bout thirty years, give or take," he says.

"How'd he lose his eye?"

"Gun blew up."

 

[fredj338]

You ain't lived until you've been lectured on being over-careful by a guy with one eye. Got an earful, and after he left, I turned to the shop owner and asked, "How long you known 'em?"

"'Bout thirty years, give or take," he says.

"How'd he lose his eye?"

"Gun blew up."

Sure ignore the original premise & keep screaming the sky is falling.
After 40yrs of reloading more than 30 diff caliber, several wildcats, i'm still here, guns & body parts all in place. So yeah, no idea what i'm doing. Just pure luck, i should buy lotto tickets.

 

[AveragEd]

I'm a former tournament trapshooter and was fortunate enough to do some winning during my time with my best showing being the 2000 Pennsylvania Class AA State Champion with one of seven 200-straights out of 1,536 entrants. And like a lot of trapshooters, I used my own loads most of the time. In fact, I bought cases of new shells primarily to get once-fired hulls for reloading. But did I ever meet some real characters of that hobby!

One guy, who was a pretty decent shot and former live bird shooter, was lecturing a bunch of newbies about why he used a wad intended for straight-walled hulls like Federal Gold Medals in tapered hulls like the Remington STS. He told them that because you have to reduce the powder charge by a grain or so due to the tighter fit of the wad in the hull creating higher pressure, you save money. "A grain here and there adds up," he told his eager listeners and they nodded their heads in agreement.

I used IMR PB powder, one of the most expensive choices of the time, and shot about 10,000 shells per year. When I did the math using what a grain of PB cost times 10,000, the savings realized by using the wrong wad would have amounted to a whopping ten bucks over a year.

That same guy used to mix his own powders in his basement. His son said he left the house when his dad was playing chemist and would never use any shells he loaded.

I saw guys put electrical tape on split hulls, apply a little glue to primers when their primer pockets became oversize from using cheaper imported primers and scrounging used wads from in front of the trap houses.

My point is that handloading should be something done to better match your ammunition to your firearm with saving money as a secondary benefit. I also do it for enjoyment as I find it a great way to burn my free time. And safety HAS to be a primary concern for your protection as well as those near you when you shoot that ammo.

Ed

 

[Wise_A]

Sure ignore the original premise & keep screaming the sky is falling.
After 40yrs of reloading more than 30 diff caliber, several wildcats, i'm still here, guns & body parts all in place. So yeah, no idea what i'm doing. Just pure luck, i should buy lotto tickets.

Actually, that was an aside. A story. I thought it was pretty funny at the time. Other people I have told it to have chuckled heartily.

Humor: It's a thing people do.

Nobody's screaming the sky is falling. Nobody said you were the one missing an eye.

If this is what you need to feel like a man in the midst of all us schoolgirls--you got it. We are all terrified little ladies, you are the manly man who reloads wildcats. Rrawwwr, fierce!

Me--if some guy I don't know asks, "I wanna reload X in Y, but there's no data"...my answer's gonna be the same thing. Not a great idea. Maybe the combo's bad, but also maybe he calculates wrong. I figure, if he has to ask how or if, then he doesn't know how, and a forum thread isn't the place to learn how. Ain't even about my personal practices. I do all sorts of **** I wouldn't recommend to the innocent bystander.

If that makes me a coward or a wuss in your book, then so be it. I ain't readin' it.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to clean some WST out of my doilies.

 

[lhump1961]

It's fine buck, as once said, "a man's got to know his limitations".
I am not advocating that shooters go off book, even though the vast majority do. What I am opposed to are the self proclaimed experts that say NEVER do this or that, because they read it someplace. My expertise are diff than your or someone elses. Nothing self proclaimed about it. Just is what it is.

I'm going to chime in here and disagree...I don't think the "vast" majority do. I have been loading since I was a kid learning from my Dad...about 45 yrs of loading for me and more for him. Many, many pistol and rifle calibers along with shotgun from 410 to 12 gauge. I have never loaded a powder in a cartridge I couldn't find data for nor do the folks I know. I'm sure there are a few but they are in the minority. That doesn't mean I've never pushed the limits or on the rare occasion experimented outside of the data but I've never just started making stuff up from scratch...I've never found a reason to and nothing in this thread has changed my mind. I'm not suggesting it can't be done successfully but it would be at a high cost of time and components. If the zombies come and I don't have a choice then perhaps. But no zombies yet.

There are infinite possible combinations and if a person enjoys the process of experimentation then by all means go for it. If great loads are discovered then they can publish and maybe make a few bucks.

edit: To clarify I will use the example of why would there be data for a powder in 9mm 115g and 147g but not for 124g? A person could easily and safely work up a load for the 124g using that powder. But I wouldn't try 3031!

 

[Biggfoot44]

.500 S&W is not typical of "handgun" ctgs. It is more similar to .45-70 than typical handgun ctgs .

John Ross is a pioneer in .500 load development, and he is firm believer in 100% densities with rifle powders vs 20% load densities with pistol powders.

Even at that, 7828 is really slow. But if all those bottles of 7828 are just staring at you, and your curiosity overwhelms you, give it a try. It is not physically possible to reach dangerous pressures in that with 7828, to the contrary, pressures will probably be to low for consistant burning.

Try heaviest cast bullet you can, with compressed load. Heavy crimp, hot primer, etc.

And I'm proud of myself for not mentioning the "D word" .

 

[buck460XVR]

My point is that handloading should be something done to better match your ammunition to your firearm with saving money as a secondary benefit. I also do it for enjoyment as I find it a great way to burn my free time. And safety HAS to be a primary concern for your protection as well as those near you when you shoot that ammo.

Ed

This has been my point since the beginning of this thread. Not how big my balls are compared to someone else, not whether or not it can be done, but why would one want to do it in a scenario where there are the correct and more appropriate components readily available?

The .460mag and .500mag are impressive firearms with a impressive price tag, and it takes an impressive amount of money to feed them. Folks need to be aware of this when they buy one. I constantly see folks asking about using cheap bullets intended for use in .45 Colt and .45ACP in .460mag at legitimate velocities. They spend $1000 or more on the firearm, $.60 a piece for brass and then want to save a dime or so apiece using inappropriate bullets and don't want to spend another $20 for an appropriate powder. They buy a high performance gun and then throw poor performing rounds downrange in order to save a few cents a shot. This makes no sense to me whatsoever. Even tho they have never reloaded for a X-Frame, they believe they will find a recipe that outperforms published loads using random oddball components they have on hand and then others that have never reloaded for a X-Frame tell then to go for it.

I reload for the X-Frames to save money over factory ammo. I do not have to use sub-par components to do so. I use appropriate component to give me the performance I expect from them and to ensure my firearms last(thin wall jacketed bullets will eat the forcing cones on X-Frames). Even with appropriate handgun powders, in order to get peak performance from either X-Frame, one will be close to 100% density and very long cry from 20%.

Now you are being a bit dishonest. The original question, you may have forgotten:

"I've got lots of rifle powder, and would like to use some in my S&W 500. How does one go about this if there is no load data for this"?

Later he asks about 7828, but the earlier responses were all "no, stick to the book, danger, danger". Some of us know that you can use some rifle powders safely w/ mixed results & stated that, but rebuked as being unsafe, which os how the whole safety issue got pushed to the front. The fact one has a bunch of powder is reason enough to ask & maybe experiment with. The point of the entire threads beginning.

While a valid question from a new reloader, the answer most of us have given "it may work, but will probably not work well." is also valid. If one wants to experiment and go outside the envelope of published loads, they should really know what kind of performance published loads give first. 7828 is one of the slowest of rifle powders, the concern of safety with it in .500 mag IMHO, would be a stuck bullet, not fear of over pressure. Stuck bullets/barrel obstruction have probably blown up as many guns as over pressure. So again, to the OP, get some appropriate powder.

 

[AveragEd]

So again, to the OP, get some appropriate powder.

Or wear a sign, "Ballistics experiment in progress" when you shoot your experimental ammo.

Ed

 

[fredj338]

I'm going to chime in here and disagree...I don't think the "vast" majority do. I have been loading since I was a kid learning from my Dad...about 45 yrs of loading for me and more for him. Many, many pistol and rifle calibers along with shotgun from 410 to 12 gauge. I have never loaded a powder in a cartridge I couldn't find data for nor do the folks I know. I'm sure there are a few but they are in the minority. That doesn't mean I've never pushed the limits or on the rare occasion experimented outside of the data but I've never just started making stuff up from scratch...I've never found a reason to and nothing in this thread has changed my mind. I'm not suggesting it can't be done successfully but it would be at a high cost of time and components. If the zombies come and I don't have a choice then perhaps. But no zombies yet.

There are infinite possible combinations and if a person enjoys the process of experimentation then by all means go for it. If great loads are discovered then they can publish and maybe make a few bucks.

edit: To clarify I will use the example of why would there be data for a powder in 9mm 115g and 147g but not for 124g? A person could easily and safely work up a load for the 124g using that powder. But I wouldn't try 3031!

You would be wrong. Unless you load exactly the primer, brass, powder & bullet, you are going off the book. It's just a matter of degree. You are extrapolating. Choosing a diff powder is just a diff level of that extrapolation.
In the example asked about rifle powders in the 500. The answer is yes, you could. w/o data, with the right powder. Since Accurate says their 1680 is acceptable, then something like 4198 or RL7 could also be worked up.
In your example. Could you use 3031 in the 9mm, it would go bang, might not cycle the slide, but it would not blow the gun up. So would it be suitable, no as it would not cycle the action.