new reloader moving from pistol to rifle

[amheck]

Hi all,
I’m currently reloading 38 and 45 on my Lee Classic turret. I’d like to slowly move to rifle, namely .223 and 6.5 Creedmoor. I think the .223 is probably easier, so I guess I’ll start with that.

From what I’ve read, it’s probably ok to load the .223 on the Classic Turret without too much issue, esp since I'm not shooting for 100% accuracy yet. It’s the 6.5 Creedmoor (RPR) where I may want to consider a nice single stage press for better precision? As I understand, it seems the main difference between pistol and rifle is the lubing of the cases and the case prep. The Dillon lube looks nice and I’ve also watched some reviews on the Frankford Arsenal Plat case prep station – I think that 1 device can take care of all of the case prep that’s necessary? Is the FA Platinum case prep station just cleaning the pocket primer and do you still need a separate ream/swage device?

Right now, I have semi-auto .223s and a bolt action 6.5 Creedmoor (the latter being focused on accuracy). I put the following steps together from what I think the steps to reload rifle are – do I have the steps listed correctly?

1. Deprime fired brass and tumble with SS media
2. Lube case and run thru full-length resizer and collet neck sizing die
3. Case prep (trim, re-size, clean pocket, deburr, swage) – does the order matter?
4. Tumble again with soap to clean lube off brass
5. Prime, charge, seat bullet, and crimp

Currently, I’m using the Lee Auto Drum charging system on the turret press for the pistol loads. I think for rifle, most would have another bench mounted powder drop and would use a funnel to charge the cases?

Any other brass prep steps I haven’t mentioned or anything else unique to reloading .223? I know some here some like the Lee stuff but the 4-die 223 set seems reasonably price and gets very good reviews. What more do you get going with one the performance die sets with the micrometer? Is that wasted money for AR range brass?

 

[Wee Hooker]

I occasionally load .223 on my Lee Classic Turret. Here are my thoughts.
-The press does a fine job for 95% of my 100-200 yd range needs. I use it in full auto indexing mode. If I want to go to high precision for long range loads, I can take out the indexing ratchet and clamp the turret. ( I think I found the need/urge to do this twice in 10 years.)
-For case lube I use the spray on, one-shot brand. It's a little more expensive but doesn't require me to wipe off the excess after sizing.
-223 cases will need trimming usually after the first time shot. I cut & debure mine back to 10 thousandths over minimum and then reload multiple times without trimming again.
- If you have military cases, you're likely going to have to ream the primer pockets the first time. I don't bother with mil surplus cases anymore. They are a PITA. Commercial brass is easier to deal with and often more uniform.
- I use a load that brings the powder level up into the neck. That way, it's easy to visually verify I have the right load AND that there was no tumbling media/debris in the case to start with.
- Many Ar's want you to use small base sizing dies or they tend to jam. I learned the hard way. Consequently, the .223 is one of the very few places I don't use the Lee brand sizing die.

Others may have differing opinions but this works for me.
hth

 

[29aholic]

Start with factory ammo, fire form to your chamber (RPR).


Since it is fire formed to your chamber, there is no need to full length resize, set your die accordingly or use a collet die.


If you do any trimming (not necessary every time), chamfering, and depriming, I would tumble after all that.


prime, charge, seat bullet. There is no need to crimp the bullet on the RPR, but you may need to on the auto loader depending on how well it feeds.


On the RPR start with the OAL as listed by the manual and start tweaking on that length. Some bullets like to be close to the lands and some are not jump sensitive.


There are hundreds of nuances when it comes to loading rifle ammo for precision.

 

[amheck]

Everytime I think I know what's going on, I seem to get more confused. So reaming/swaging is only really for range pick up brass? If I always just use my own (Federal and Wolf Gold), it seems like I can just skip the reaming? The Dillon 600 tool did look pretty slick, though.

Open to recommendations on a die set. I have searched and recommendations seem to be all over the place. I did just read up on the small base dies and they seem to overwork the brass. Seems like you can load a few on non small base dies and see how it goes, and then switch over to SB if needed.

 

[OKFC05]

I have loaded .270 Win and other rifle caliber rifle on a Lee turret with mostly RCBS dies since 1973, for bolt actions and semi-auto. Semi autos require full length sizing.
If you select your components and prep your cases correctly, you do not need exotic dies and monster presses. The devil is in the details for long range shooting, not in buying stacks of expensive and gimmicky loading equipment.
I have a friend who loads all rifle with virgin brass, rock chucker press and straight line forster dies. On a perfectly calm day from a rest, his groups are better than mine. On a typical Oklahoma breezy day or shooting from positions, I am just as accurate as he is, some days better. Drives him bonkers.

 

[H Richard]

I would recommend RCBS or Redding dies. I would discourage Hornady dies. My favorite lube and one that has never failed and is also the favorite of a lot of Benchrest shooters in Imperial Sizing Wax. Easy to use, If you don't already have a good reloading manual get one, read all the information, and stick to loads within the book. If you are shooting a semi-auto .223 I recommend full length sizing to ensure feeding reliability, and possibly small base dies.

 

[fredj338]

The press isn't necessarily getting you more precision. If built properly, it's all about the dies. Many say you can't load precision ammo on a progressive, yet, many do load sub moa ammo on them. Same for the turret, if built right.
For rifle dies I am a Redding fan. Lee dies can make great ammo though. I have a Neck set for my 260ai, shoots routine sub 1/2 moa all day. If loading for a semi auto, I like small base dies for the insurance when using range brass in 223. For your 6.5 on an AR, you can probably do fine with normal full length sizing dies. IMO neck dies for any semi are a problem waiting to happen. There just isn't enough camming force in the bolt if you get a case that gets a little fat in the body. You can partial neck size your 6.5 & get it to run, maybe.
Something else you will need to have for rifle is a case trimmer of some sort. Rifle cases stretch when fired & resized. So after 3-4 firings they may need trimming. One way to get around that often is the RCBS 'X' die. Trim the cases once & never do it again. I went 8x with full power 223 in my AR. Then I started losing them to neck splits. Not sure if that was the die or mil spec brass.

 

[Twoboxer]

Everytime I think I know what's going on, I seem to get more confused. So reaming/swaging is only really for range pick up brass? If I always just use my own (Federal and Wolf Gold), it seems like I can just skip the reaming?. . .

Primer Pocket Reaming/Swaging:

Military ammo and perhaps a couple of other "brands" have sealed the primer in its pocket to ensure long-term stability and reliability. Removing those primers in the usual ways is a bit more difficult. Further, parts of the crimp used to seal the primer will remain. This makes it difficult or impossible to insert a new primer.

These are removed by either swaging (forcing the crimp out of the pocket) or reaming (cutting the crimp out of the pocket).

This must be done to all brass with crimped primer pockets. It is a one-time task.

Primer Pocket Uniforming

There are various aspects, but let's just say this is an operation done to shape all primer pockets to accept a primer seated squarely and to the same depth. Some folks think this is important.

For some folks, it's also a method of cleaning residue out of the primer pocket for the same purpose (and to avoid blocking of the flash hole). Curiously, at least some of these tools may also remove a crimp

This step is performed after each firing by some, periodically by others, when a pocket is visibly clogged by others, and never by the rest.

I can see why you're confused

 

[amheck]

Primer Pocket Reaming/Swaging:

I can see why you're confused

to make matters worse, i even looked up "crimped vs no crimped" and couldn't tell the difference. I think i need to find a better picture.

 

[Ballistic147]

I load 223 on a progressive press. All of it is for range ammo in 4 different AR's and my goal is to load reliable, relatively accurate ammo while saving a little money. So far everything I've loaded has been at least as good as factory ammo so I'm happy.

My routine for once fired brass is to first tumble it in corncob media for and hour or so to remove any dirt or grit that could cause problems in the sizing die. Then the cleaned cases are lubed with Imperial Sizing Die Wax (this is good stuff!) and from there they go through the sizing/de priming die which goes really quickly. After that another run through the tumbler to remove the lube which generally takes about 30 minutes. At that point everything goes through the trimmer to get it all to a uniform length. The the case mouth is deburred and chamfered and then anything with a crimped primer has the crimp removed using an RCBS Military Crimp Remover. This tool is quick and works great chucked up in a cordless drill. It's also pretty much fool proof as it will only remove the crimp and nothing more. After these steps it's back in the tumbler for a few hours to give it a nice better than new shine. At that point it's ready to load.

I bought a set of Hornady dies and like them except for the sizing die. It seems sticky even with a really good lube. Ended up buying a Lee sizing die and it definitely works much smoother. Since I'm reloading for semi autos I only use a full length sizing die. I do like the Hornady seating die because the bullet guide works really well.

As far as measuring powder, my press is the Hornady LNL progressive with the case operated powder drop. This unit works extremely well and is very accurate with a ball type powder. I use CFE223 as it meters very good. Although I haven't tried any I've read about a lot of problems with stick powders like Varget metering in the Hornady unit. Not sure about the Lee so you might look into that. Most likely your powder choice will dictate how you measure your charges.

As others have said, stick with published data from a reliable source, be very careful and your loads will be safe.

 

[amheck]

Thanks for the continued thoughts. Been reading on the dies....seems as though you really only need a ful length sizer and a seater if shooting from an AR? Crimper seems optional, but most dont seem to do it. Do i have that right?

 

[Drm50]

I load 80some rifle cals. Have loaded since 1962, with old mans
supervision. Every rifle round I load is for accuracy. Load all rifle
ammo on a single stage. I never crimp anything I don't have to.
You don't need to buy a separate crimp die, it is built in the seat
die. For some special applications there are taper crimp dies. I
crimp cartridges for tube magazines and some heavy magnums.
This is just to prevent bullet set back, during recoil. I don't like
the inexpensive turret presses, and like none of them for anything bigger than 223 class case. I keep my cases for each
rifle separate, to use in that rifle only. Requiring only neck size.
Also don't tumble casings after every use. I do clean primer pockets every time they are loaded. May not be your cup of tea
if you are loading bang bang ammo for ARs.

 

[ageingstudent]

to make matters worse, i even looked up "crimped vs no crimped" and couldn't tell the difference. I think i need to find a better picture.

Once the old primer is out It's difficult to see the ridge left by the crimping or staking. If you look at the head of the fired case with the primer still in the case you will see a stamped ring or three stake marks. The lake city case is crimped 5.56, the Remington case is .223 not crimped commercial brass. See the crimp ring around the LC primer? It looks quite different than the rounded edge on the Remington case.

If you can find a CBC case you will see the three staking punches around the primer pocket. I don't have one handy. Crimped pockets need to be swaged or reamed once.

 

[Twoboxer]

Thanks for the continued thoughts. Been reading on the dies....seems as though you really only need a ful length sizer and a seater if shooting from an AR? Crimper seems optional, but most dont seem to do it. Do i have that right?

Bolt actions chamber and eject rounds in a fairly controlled manner. In most cases this allows fired brass to be re-chambered in the same rifle without resizing the body. While the brass will expand to fully fit the chamber when fired, it (most often) springs back enough to provide the tolerances needed to re-chamber.

However, after some number of firings the brass will need the shoulder bumped back and/or the case to be "full length sized".

Semi-autos operate at higher speeds and under greater pressures during chambering and ejection. They need greater tolerances in order to operate smoothly without failures. These actions are unlikely to operate well with brass that is a near-perfect fit for the chamber. They need the brass re-sized to original specifications after each firing to avoid failures.

 

[Nevada Ed]

True, a gas operated rifle does need pressure to operate.

It has also been proved that a lower fps bullet in the old M-1, M14, M-16 in the small or larger dia. bullets, usually give the best accuracy.
Berger bullets has a chart that shows barrel twist and bullets
that will match for best accuracy.
For longer ranges, the medium to heavy bullets normally drift less in wind and even drop less.

Good loading.

 

[gwpercle]

The Lee dies are fine . At this point in your learning , Micrometer type dies might be a bit of over kill. You might want to save those for the 6.5 Creedmore and bolt action.

CH4D makes some outstanding reloading dies, mostly us older reloaders know about them...most new reloaders can only say RCBS and think nothing else will do . Check out their website .
Gary

 

[AtomHeartMother]

I load 223 on my classic turret with Lee dies and their auto drum powder measure. Not sure if I've just been lucky or did my homework, or maybe a little of both. I zeroed in on an accurate load for me pretty quickly. 100% reliability out of my m&p15, a friends rock river and another colt ar. I'm getting about 1.5 moa with 55 grain fmjbt. Been using cfe223 exclusively. So far I've been really impressed with the powder. Not sure if it was mentioned but a case gauge is a must... I use one by lyman...specs seem to work for me so far.

 

[amheck]

Thinking I might try the Forster bench rest set here

Forster Bench Rest 2-Die Set 223 Remington

Seems to get good reviews and come highly recommended. I have been going back and forth on the micronmeter seater, but yeah, maybe I will leave that for the 6.5 Creedmoor.

I have also seem the CH4D site - they do seem to make some nice stuff. Thinking about their press mounted swager set for around $35. Seems like a solid deal for that and I could just keep it in my turret with the other 2 Forster dies.

Thanks for the continued tips. Looking forward to taking this next step soon.

 

[29aholic]

See if there are any gun clubs in the area (not public ranges) and see if you can hook up with someone that has done this for a while.

 

[rwsmith]

Don't get case lube.....

Don't get case lube on the shoulder when resizing. It's amazing how bad the shoulder can wrinkle if lube is there.

Chamfer the inside of the case mouths for starting bullets, and deburr the outside of the mouth.

Use a TINY bit of lube in mouth of the case to seat bullets. This can be thin stuff like a spray on applied with a 'bottle' type brush. Sometimes I just use a q-tip and touch around the inside rim of the mouth.