17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel?

[lucidreamer]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post here as I recently started learning about S&W revolvers and came across this great forum.

I recently picked up my third S&W revolver on gunbroker.com to add to my gun collection and use as a frequent shooter on the local ranges. It is a 17-3 in great shape for a fair price without obvious signs of abuse or neglect. I first took it apart completely, degreased and cleaned it thoroughly inside, put it together, lubed it and it is now a really great gun, probably the most accurate of everything I tried before, grouping 1" from 25 yards using the pistol rest. I later upgraded the rear sight to the competition one and put the custom grips on it.

My only concern is that when I first sighted it in, I noticed that the rear sight needed to be off center and closer to the left to hit the center. I have another 15-4 revolver and the rear sight on it is perfectly centered. My other new 17-9 revolver also had the same issue but new production models are commonly known for misaligned barrels and the quality is not the same even though it is pretty accurate.

My question is whether this is an issue that should be addressed by S&W company or this is perfectly normal and within the quality control/tolerance limits? I read that anywhere within +1- degree is considered normal for barrel alignment.

I attached a few pictures of the revolver for your review and would just like to hear some opinions. I also showed the gun to the local gunsmith at the range and he said it looks normal and the barrel seems straight but I think I can see that the barrel is tiny bit under-torqued or it could be just an optical illusion because the lines are not perfect either.

Please let me know if I should just leave it alone and just keep it as is, I really enjoy shooting it and like the overall quality, it feels very solid and well-built compared to new models. Or should I try to contact the CS at S&W and ship it to them for possible barrel readjustment and aligning to have the rear sight dead-centered. I also do not want to have them mess it up and end up with a badly-repaired revolver. I would rather prefer to keep it as is instead.

Does anyone have the same type of issues with K22s when the rear sight needs to be adjusted to the left or to the right to stay accurate? I know that the sight is adjustable for a reason but I think the level of adjustment in my case is a bit too much.

Please advise and thank you in advance.

 

[EricR]

I agree with Collects, I'd not be concerned at all with a rear sight adjustment like you shown. Not out of the ordinary.

 

[WR Moore]

Picture 3 shows the rib on the barrel well centered with respect to the rib on the frame, so the odds of the sight being canted due to barrel clocking are really slim.

Are there a couple of other possible mechanical causes? Yes, the front sight might not be centered on the barrel or the blade of the sight might be bent.

Or, it just may be that the rear sight has to be in that position for the way you shoot that particular revolver. That's one of the reasons they make firearms with adjustable sights. I wouldn't worry about it, enjoy it.

 

[Old_Cop]

Is that a S&W rear blade on that sight? I have never seen one like that. I would prefer it to be centered but other reasons for the sight to be off include ammunition, grip and trigger finger placement.

 

[Coaltminer]

S&W 17

Looks ok to me, but it looks like a Millett rear sight to me. Shoot away. I doubt Smith would tell you any different, it's an aftermarket sight, better than the original, IMHO. It's like a Colt Eliason target sight on a Python. You've lucked out sir.
y

 

[2152hq]

Did you shoot it with the factory original sight,,and if so did that sight require adj to the left also?

Try shooting the revolver with the factory grips,,not the upgrade target grips.
It may just be you, and the way you grip the revolver, pull the trigger, ect that requires the sight setting as so.
The oversize grips that are on it may be inflicting some influence on that.
Try it w/o them and just the factory grips instead. See there it groups w/o any sight change.
If the group suddenly goes somewhere else, I think you have an answer, or at least part of it.

Look at the front sight from the front/muzzle. See if the blade is straight and not canted from being bent.
A dropped revolver can bend them easier than most think. It only takes a couple .000 cant to throw groups off center. Making a rear sight adjustment necessary to bring them back on the mark.

 

[lucidreamer]

Thanks everyone for your feedback and suggestions. I guess I will keep shooting the gun that way anyways and stop worrying too much about it. This is just cosmetic, in the end, a red dot may be another solution and I already installed one on my 17-9 using a picatinny rail. I like to keep the open sights on this one to have one revolver with the red dot and this one with regular sights for a change.

It has nothing to do with the trigger control, grips or the rear blade replacement. It was that way from Day 1 using the original everything. I may get some flyers off hand occasionally when jerking the trigger but when shooting off the pistol rest in single action mode, it punches pretty tight groups.

It may be due to ammo but I tried different brands and it may hit higher or lower depending on the ammo speed but still hits in the same direction. The front sight is perfect and was never damaged.

I think the barrel may be screwed to the frame at a very slight angle to the right and not perfectly straight, which causes it to shoot to the right causing the rear sight to be adjusted to the left. There may be a possibility that this is not an original barrel and the replacement barrel was installed that way, just some guess.

Regarding the sight replacement - this is an aftermarket Jack Weigand rear blade which I got from his site for 25 dollars incl. shipping:
Smith Wesson Rear Sight Blade K L N

The original blade notch was too wide for my liking and the notch on that one is .110" which is easier to aim. One issue with the replacement is the blade height is .160" but for Model K22 and 17 the standard blade height is .146". If there is some elevation room left to lower the rear sight on some revolvers, it will be fine, but in my case I had to lower the rear sight all the way down and still aim at 6 o'clock at the bottom of the circle to hit the center.
Replacing the blade was not hard and I managed to save the original windage screw using a special screwdriver bit with notches to keep the slotted nut in place while carefully removing the screw. Sometimes the screw needs to break when it is punched into the nut too much and cannot turn. A replacement screw is still available online.

 

[Troystat]

Does your point of impact change if you shoot two handed from a rest compared to offhand. There are a lot of variables with pistol shooting that are not gun related. I know with my 17-4 the sights are to the right of center for me with offhand shooting. As long as you have enough adjustment room to get the bullets where you want than I would leave it alone.

 

[k22fan]

Rather than repeating that the barrel appears to be screwed in straight up and down, I'll try to convince you that it is clocked correctly with your own words.

[...] I think the barrel may be screwed to the frame at a very slight angle to the right and not perfectly straight, which causes it to shoot to the right causing the rear sight to be adjusted to the left. [...]

If the barrel was not screwed in far enough to get the sight vertical that would move point of impact to the left which is the opposite of what you are trying to blame on barrel clocking. Remember, we move the rear sight the direction we want to move point of impact but we move the front sight in the opposite direction. Draw it out on paper if you have to.

It appears you have only used about half of the available windage adjustment. It is very common for target shooters to use more than that sighting in. Hand the gun to a different competitor and he may well move it off that far in the other direction. That's why target shooters need adjustable sights.

 

[lucidreamer]

Rather than repeating that the barrel appears to be screwed in straight up and down, I'll try to convince you that it is clocked correctly with your own words.
If the barrel was not screwed in far enough to get the sight vertical that would move point of impact to the left which is the opposite of what you are trying to blame on barrel clocking. Remember, we move the rear sight the direction we want to move point of impact but we move the front sight in the opposite direction. Draw it out on paper if you have to.

That was not exactly what I tried to say, I meant that the barrel could be torqued all the way down to the frame but the angle at which the hole is made in the frame is not exactly parallel to the frame. That makes the barrel point left or right and the rear sight needs compensation for that. If the barrel is shifted to the right, the POA will be hitting to the right and the sight needs to be moved left to hit the center, for instance.

The revolver was made in late 60s or early 70s, there were no computer-based CNC machines back then and everything was done by eye and experience using power machines measurement tools. Pretty normal to have variations between different batches of production lines.

I tried to put the ruler against the sides of the rear sight ribs on both sides and compare spacing for the barrel, it looks ok to me but maybe the left side has a tiny bigger spacing which explains why it shoots a bit to the right.

In any case, I just wanted to confirm if this is normal and I can just live with this for now. No biggie.

Thanks again.

 

[smithman]

They put adjustable sights on the gun for a reason. I’m never surprised when I have to tweak a rear sight for a particular load. That’s to be expected. As long as the rear sight blade doesn’t overhang the base, I consider it normal.

 

[lscocoa]

I have several S&W’s some scoped or red dotted and most iron sighted. Everyone that is straight iron sight is moved to the right, some a little and some even more so. I think your barrel looks fine , it could be your grip or the stocks . One thing I noticed on new S&W’s like my 48-7 k-frame is that the target grips are narrower than my 17-3 which I feel changes your grip possibly changing point of impact . Another example is my shooting bud has larger paws than I and he usually tells me to sight my guns in because they’re off for him. Just my input and I like red dots too.

 

[lucidreamer]

I have several S&W’s some scoped or red dotted and most iron sighted. Everyone that is straight iron sight is moved to the right, some a little and some even more so. I think your barrel looks fine , it could be your grip or the stocks . One thing I noticed on new S&W’s like my 48-7 k-frame is that the target grips are narrower than my 17-3 which I feel changes your grip possibly changing point of impact . Another example is my shooting bud has larger paws than I and he usually tells me to sight my guns in because they’re off for him. Just my input and I like red dots too.

I do not think it could be my grip or the stocks. I have several other guns with factory set sights and they are perfectly accurate as is. I tried four different grips on this one and the results are the same using the rest or offhand. Something is a bit off mechanically wise but I am happy to know that it is not unusual so I can just live with it.

Does anyone know if a brand new factory boxed Mod 17 has been sighted in by the company? In other words if you get a brand new gun for instance, will it be accurate with the sights already? I read that all new K22s have rear sights in the center from the factory but don't know if this is true or not.

Thanks again. Love this forum. Tons of useful information to learn.

 

[model3sw]

Lets get a close up look at the front sight. I cannot determine the type from the photos. Sometimes the front sight could be off ever so slightly.

 

[gmborkovic]

the top view is the tell. It looks so very little bit out of square. Just look at the pic from the top. The right side rib does not quite line up with the ribs on the frame. Picky, yea! Paid all that money, I want it perfect. Let me have it.

 

[lucidreamer]

Lets get a close up look at the front sight. I cannot determine the type from the photos. Sometimes the front sight could be off ever so slightly.

Sure. I took a few pictures on the front sight, it actually looks perfect and symmetrical to me but may look a bit off due to lighting. It's hard to take pictures of it with the phone.

 

[lucidreamer]

the top view is the tell. It looks so very little bit out of square. Just look at the pic from the top. The right side rib does not quite line up with the ribs on the frame. Picky, yea! Paid all that money, I want it perfect. Let me have it.

I agree, it looks a bit off and under-clocked, however, when I place a flat ruler against the barrel and mark the space with a pen where it meets the frame, it matches on both sides. This seems pretty symmetrical to me.

 

[model3sw]

Try a .22 caliber bore-sighter laser. That should tell the tale but either way it is so negligibly off, it shouldn't be a worry. If you hadn't stated you used a pistol rest I'd have attributed it to a shooter's visual perspective.

The grouping you presented either means it was a machine rest or you're sharper than Wild Bill but let me ask anway ... You did mean a machine rest like a Ransom Rest, correct ?

 

[lucidreamer]

The grouping you presented either means it was a machine rest or you're sharper than Wild Bill but let me ask anway ... You did mean a machine rest like a Ransom Rest, correct ?

Not really a machine rest or vice. I don't actually have one yet and should get one maybe some day.

I just used a regular tripod rest which I use for shooting both rifles and pistols on the range and on the backyard. I was taking a few seconds of break between each shot in single action mode at 25 yards which is maximum for pistol range here. The trigger release on this revolver is super light and smooth. Wearing my prescription glasses it grouped all 6 shots into a hole that could be covered by a quarter. It was at 2 o'clock off center because the gun was not sighted-in yet but all the shots landed in one ragged hole. I was impressed myself with its accuracy and should have taken a picture to prove it maybe. Next time I definitely will. Great gun indeed. My 17-9 is accurate too with the red dot installed but not as much as this older one.
When target shooting at 25 yards or more with the handgun, I try to use larger circled targets, they are easier to aim in the center from longer distances.

 

[lucidreamer]

The portable rest I am using. It fits inside the range bag and can be set up and adjusted quickly.