Misconceptions about .38 J Frames for women

[Paper Clip]

Forgive me for this may be a long post. Also, this is just my opinion, I am sure many disagree with me.

I have recently been making some headway in convincing my significant other to get her ccw permit and start keeping a gun with her. I plan on letting her shoot every handgun I own, autos and revolvers, (starting with .38 wadcutters in my 686) and go from there as to what she would like to train with and carry. I have also recently bought a J frame (for myself, not her. Secretly though, I wanted her to be able to shoot one to practice/try it out in a holster, purse, etc). While researching, reading reviews, etc on different J frames/lcrs, I have come across the same thing over and over again that has irked me to the point that I feel the need to post about it.


"J Frames are not for women," "J frames are a terrible choice for your wife," etc...


I am sure all of us know the reasons given for this. More recoil, light gun, heavy trigger pull sums it up for the most part. The part that all of these reviewers and armchair commandos are not acknowledging is that many (probably the vast majority) of women, including my girlfriend, have no interest in guns, shooting, or trying to dress around a gun for concealment. If it is not comfortable, they absolutely will not carry it. Also, there is little interest from many women in extensive training for malfunctions, etc that should be done with an autoloader. My girlfriend will most likely need the simplest thing possible. No slide to rack, no magazine to insert, no safety to disengage, and definitely not a light trigger pull. Lets face it, many of us do not practice as much as we would like. Why in the world would I expect someone not interested in firearms to do so?! If she has to defend herself, it will be at very close range. She will not be running into combat with an active shooter or firing at someone any farther than say, 10 feet away, and that's probably being generous. If I can not get her point-shooting good enough at that distance with a J frame, there is something wrong with me as her teacher, not with the gun. You can always put crimson trace grips on the gun to help too. Yes, let her start with something that is easy to shoot first and gradually let her try the J frame, but there is nothing wrong with a woman carrying a J frame. I would much rather my girlfriend carry a revolver than an automatic, and I know that she will only carry the smallest, lightest thing I can get her. Why should I try to get her to carry something else that is going to end up left at home or in the car? I shouldn't. If she ends up choosing to carry a revolver (which she probably will for simplicity), I feel much better with her having 5 low recoil 148gr wadcutters in an air-weight on her than 7 rounds in an all steel L frame in the car.

 

[tpole]

Years ago bought my wife a Sig 232 because of its simplicity and reliability. She could barely use it, even after training.

Moved to a Model 36 with 3" heavy BBL. Added Wolfe springs, touched up the rebound slide, replaced stocks. Much mo betta. Now it's her daily carry... and I pack the Sig.

 

[3rdgeargrndrr]

My #1 complaint is first timers buy an airweight and shoot 38s.
I always always always say shoot 22 first. Or even a bb gun.
My wife and kids went from 22 (m63), to mouse fart 38 handloAds (m60) to regular 38. You want to keep them in the game and have fun? Go small first.
Going for the 686 with 38 is a great idea. But my wifes hands are small and even a k frame is too big for her. My kids are not recoil sensitive, they are noise sensitive and I dont like in a supressor friendly state. Subsonic loads and private land shooting were the only way to go for me at first

 

[socalDDS]

Forgive me for this may be a long post. Also, this is just my opinion, I am sure many disagree with me.



I have recently been making some headway in convincing my significant other to get her ccw permit and start keeping a gun with her. I plan on letting her shoot every handgun I own, autos and revolvers, (starting with .38 wadcutters in my 686) and go from there as to what she would like to train with and carry. I have also recently bought a J frame (for myself, not her. Secretly though, I wanted her to be able to shoot one to practice/try it out in a holster, purse, etc). While researching, reading reviews, etc on different J frames/lcrs, I have come across the same thing over and over again that has irked me to the point that I feel the need to post about it.





"J Frames are not for women," "J frames are a terrible choice for your wife," etc...





I am sure all of us know the reasons given for this. More recoil, light gun, heavy trigger pull sums it up for the most part. The part that all of these reviewers and armchair commandos are not acknowledging is that many (probably the vast majority) of women, including my girlfriend, have no interest in guns, shooting, or trying to dress around a gun for concealment. If it is not comfortable, they absolutely will not carry it. Also, there is little interest from many women in extensive training for malfunctions, etc that should be done with an autoloader. My girlfriend will most likely need the simplest thing possible. No slide to rack, no magazine to insert, no safety to disengage, and definitely not a light trigger pull. Lets face it, many of us do not practice as much as we would like. Why in the world would I expect someone not interested in firearms to do so?! If she has to defend herself, it will be at very close range. She will not be running into combat with an active shooter or firing at someone any farther than say, 10 feet away, and that's probably being generous. If I can not get her point-shooting good enough at that distance with a J frame, there is something wrong with me as her teacher, not with the gun. You can always put crimson trace grips on the gun to help too. Yes, let her start with something that is easy to shoot first and gradually let her try the J frame, but there is nothing wrong with a woman carrying a J frame. I would much rather my girlfriend carry a revolver than an automatic, and I know that she will only carry the smallest, lightest thing I can get her. Why should I try to get her to carry something else that is going to end up left at home or in the car? I shouldn't. If she ends up choosing to carry a revolver (which she probably will for simplicity), I feel much better with her having 5 low recoil 148gr wadcutters in an air-weight on her than 7 rounds in an all steel L frame in the car.

This is a great post, and you bring up a lot of excellent points... I have many EDC firearms that I choose from, but the one that gets the most love is my S&W 642 Airweight. When I first bought it and took it out to the range, I thought, what a miserable gun to shoot! With the factory grips, it was absolutely painful! So, I put on a set of Hogue grips, had a gunsmith do a trigger job for me, and now I absolutely LOVE it! You might try going this route when choosing an EDC for your girlfriend...it is SUPER light, easy to carry, and you can be a little more secure that she won't have to worry about malfunctions, or clearing it if she's in a bad situation. My wife, and my 12 year old daughter both shoot my 642 very well, and you might want to give it a try! Hope this helps!


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[Hasbeen1945]

My wife took her CHL test with a Sig p232. She's carried a 60, 36 and a 637. Each one she liked better because they got lighter.
Due to hand surgery, recoil became a problem for her. She now carries a 651. I think that's the model number. It disappeared in her purse and the only time I see it is when it needs to be cleaned. It's a j frame 7 shot 22 Magnum. Probably not my first choice but it works for her.

 

[TomkinsSP]

You would not want to put one dollar on a match against my wife and her M49. Just saying.

 

[lkabug]

Women (and men) will carry what they're comfortable shooting and carrying.
My Lady now carries the Shield 380 EZ in her purse. Being a retired LEO, she is no stranger to guns, and can and will shoot anything, and shoot it well. Recoil and noise isn't an issue she just shoots the EZ better then anything else in the safe and that selection runs from the lightweight Ti revolvers to 10mm semis all of which she shoots and shoots well.

 

[haywood]

I agree with the OP. I started my wife with a 4" 357 shooting 38 special ammo. When she got comfortable with that we moved to the J-Frame. She handles a 442 well. For a hour of range time it is too light so she has been shooting my 2" 7 shot Taurus. Heavy gun, more fun. Now, if I could only get her to carry. Not happening. Oh well, I always have Two so, I can hand one off. Hope when I'm not there she doesn't learn the hard way.

 

[Cal44]

I'm a guy, but frankly I think a lot of what is written about gun selection for, and by, women is sexist and wrong.

First the idea that women can't rack a slide. I believe all three of my grand daughters, my wife (over 70), our daughter-in-law, and even our DIL's mom who is over 80 could rack a slide.

The only one who can't is my sister in law. But it's not because she is weak, it's because she has a deformed hand with no fingers.

I believe any healthy woman can learn to rack a slide, and if not, then she should start doing some hand strength exercises and soon she will be able to.

On the recoil subject. Most men have trouble with the triggers on J frames and need a lot of practice to become proficient.

And many men carry J frames because they aren't willing to put up with dressing around (and lugging around) a big gun.

I'm in this category.

On the other side, women who are interested in becoming proficient with guns can learn to shoot a J frame just as well as men can.

 

[flagman1776]

I don't know who you are talking to. Lots of cops & others carry them themselves & arm their SOs with just that sort of gun.
I'd suggest a DAO J frame. There are lots of choices in these popular guns... because they are popular guns! I'd consider 32s & 38s. I wouldn't care if it's rated for magnums... I'd not go above +P 38s. A 3" is more shootable if the weight isn't an issue.
My 3" 36-1 is a great shooter... though I think a concealed hammer gun would be better. I found the 3" was not an impediment to concealment in a proper holster.
A J frame 22 is a great range gun & trainer.

 

[Rpg]

Lightweight j frames are the most difficult handguns to learn to shoot well.

That said, a professional trigger job (not a DIYS job) is the first step in making them manageable.

The second step is adding a Tyler t grip to factory magnas. Other aftermarket grips help too, but add bulk that may interfere with concealability.

Stay away from laser grips: they add an additional gizmo that complicates operating the gun, they slow you down in sd settings and they teach the shooter bad shooting habits: to look at the wrong thing. Remember: front sight, front sight, front sight!!

The third step is using 148 gr wadcutter ammo exclusively: it's great sd ammo and encourages practice and skill development. Resist the silly urge to stoke your j frame with +p ammo, boutique stuff or expanding bullets. It goes without saying that 357 mag in a lightweight j frame is to be avoided at all costs.

Fourth: select a handgun that can be fired single action as well as double action. While sd shooting is likely a double action task, learning to shoot with the option of single action shooting makes learning sighting and trigger control much easier and quicker.

Fifth, don't try to teach a beginner to point shoot. Teach them to see the sights. Always.

Finally, let her pick her own gun and GET SOMEONE ELSE to do the shooting instruction. She's much more likely to carry a gun she's picked than what you pick for her. Having someone else do the instruction will improve your relationship and is much more likely to be retained.

 

[Paper Clip]

I'm a guy, but frankly I think a lot of what is written about gun selection for, and by, women is sexist and wrong.

First the idea that women can't rack a slide. I believe all three of my grand daughters, my wife (over 70), our daughter-in-law, and even our DIL's mom who is over 80 could rack a slide.

The only one who can't is my sister in law. But it's not because she is weak, it's because she has a deformed hand with no fingers.

I believe any healthy woman can learn to rack a slide, and if not, then she should start doing some hand strength exercises and soon she will be able to.

On the recoil subject. Most men have trouble with the triggers on J frames and need a lot of practice to become proficient.

And many men carry J frames because they aren't willing to put up with dressing around (and lugging around) a big gun.

I'm in this category.

On the other side, women who are interested in becoming proficient with guns can learn to shoot a J frame just as well as men can.

I am not saying that women are not able to rack a slide and shoot well with an automatic. I am sure 99% of women can rack a slide and have the ability to deal with all the moving parts if they decide that they want to. I am saying that the majority of them in my experience (my girlfriend included) are not interested in training enough to be proficient with racking a slide and dealing with a separate magazine and a safety (and yes, if you carry an automatic you should be training in this, however basic it may seem.) A revolver is just simpler for the operator. There are of course exceptions. There are many women who love guns! but that's not what this post is about. I am talking about women who do not have an interest in shooting. I am not trying to be sexist. In my personal experience, more men like guns than do women. More men are interested in practicing with guns than are women. More men are willing to carry a gun than are women. Your personal experience may be different.
The trigger issue is an issue, but not at point-blank range, and not at 5-10 feet with a little bit of practice. We are not talking about bullseye shooting here, just center of mass.

 

[Cal44]

I am not saying that women are not able to rack a slide and shoot well with an automatic. I am sure 99% of women can rack a slide and have the ability to deal with all the moving parts if they decide that they want to. I am saying that the majority of them in my experience (my girlfriend included) are not interested in training enough to be proficient with racking a slide and dealing with a separate magazine and a safety (and yes, if you carry an automatic you should be training in this, however basic it may seem.) A revolver is just simpler for the operator. There are of course exceptions. There are many women who love guns! but that's not what this post is about. I am talking about women who do not have an interest in shooting. I am not trying to be sexist. In my personal experience, more men like guns than do women. More men are interested in practicing with guns than are women. More men are willing to carry a gun than are women. Your personal experience may be different.
The trigger issue is an issue, but not at point-blank range, and not at 5-10 feet with a little bit of practice. We are not talking about bullseye shooting here, just center of mass.

My post wasn't met as a criticism of you.

I've read the "women can't rack the slide" comment from other Internet posters so often, the I just decide to rant on the subject.

No insult intended.

 

[Paper Clip]

My post wasn't met as a criticism of you.

I've read the "women can't rack the slide" comment from other Internet posters so often, the I just decide to rant on the subject.

No insult intended.

I took your post in the wrong way. I thought that you were saying that I was being sexist in my post. My apologies!!

 

[S&WsRsweet]

The American Rifleman did a story this past year about this very subject and women when given a choice overall didn't choose a j frame. I carry and like my air weight but my wife hates it on the other hand she doesn't like an auto either her favorite is a k frame 3 inch ,she shoots pretty good but she isn't a gun person .i say give women a choice just like us guys they are individuals and each makes different choices but kudos to you for at least giving the subject serious thought.

 

[hkcavalier]

The beauty of a .38 J Frame is you can pick everything from standard pressure stuff under 100 grains to 158gr +P wadcutters that get your attention out of an alloy framed gun.

If someone (regardless of gender) can't handle something like the Hornady 90gr pink tip out of a J frame, they're not going to do any better with a small .380 or 9mm. You're getting into Beretta tip barrel or .22 revolver territory at that point. Better than nothing by far. Remember the thread about the gal who stopped her daughter's stalker with a Walter .22? I doubt she loses sleep wondering if she should upgrade to a bigger gun. It did its job.

 

[dr. mordo]

I HIGHLY recommend anyone shopping for their wife check out a .327. It's the perfect round for someone who hasn't shot much, because it uses any .32 variant of ammo (even the semi-rimmed.32 ACP supposedly). I'd start her off with .32 Long (Fiocci is fairly cheap and available if you order online), they try .32 H&R, then full tilt .327 Mag if she does well with that. If all else fails you could even fall back to .32 Short for training. The .327 round is a monster. Anyone at the business end of a 327 is going to rethink their life choices if just from the blast and noise. That said, it's far more manageable to the shooter than .357 and feels more like shooting .38 SPL in an airweight.

For carry, I'd get a LCR327 rather than a SP101 - I have the LCR and love it. I love SP101s also, but I think the LCR327 is the perfect weight for folks who want an easy and unobtrusive gun to carry.

I own several S&W revolvers, but IMO the LCR327 is the perfect gun for this situation. It's light so she can easily transition the gun from her purse to her waistband if she is in a bad situation and thinks the gun might be needed. After its broken in, the trigger pull is very light (much lighter than a J frame) and the grip is well designed to absorb some recoil. And like I said, it's the most ammo flexible gun I have ever seen.

The only downside is they are spendy - I paid $500 at my LGS; they are $515+transfer fee at Buds. Not cheap, but that is one gun I don't think I'll ever sell. In 20 years when my arthritis is in full bloom, I have a feeling that LCR327 will be my primary CCW.

Finally, when is Smith going to reintroduce the 632!!!!

 

[Paper Clip]

I HIGHLY recommend anyone shopping for their wife check out a .327. It's the perfect round for someone who hasn't shot much, because it uses any .32 variant of ammo (even the semi-rimmed.32 ACP supposedly). I'd start her off with .32 Long (Fiocci is fairly cheap and available if you order online), they try .32 H&R, then full tilt .327 Mag if she does well with that. If all else fails you could even fall back to .32 Short for training. The .327 round is a monster. Anyone at the business end of a 327 is going to rethink their life choices if just from the blast and noise. That said, it's far more manageable to the shooter than .357 and feels more like shooting .38 SPL in an airweight.

For carry, I'd get a LCR327 rather than a SP101 - I have the LCR and love it. I love SP101s also, but I think the LCR327 is the perfect weight for folks who want an easy and unobtrusive gun to carry.

I own several S&W revolvers, but IMO the LCR327 is the perfect gun for this situation. It's light so she can easily transition the gun from her purse to her waistband if she is in a bad situation and thinks the gun might be needed. After its broken in, the trigger pull is very light (much lighter than a J frame) and the grip is well designed to absorb some recoil. And like I said, it's the most ammo flexible gun I have ever seen.

The only downside is they are spendy - I paid $500 at my LGS; they are $515+transfer fee at Buds. Not cheap, but that is one gun I don't think I'll ever sell. In 20 years when my arthritis is in full bloom, I have a feeling that LCR327 will be my primary CCW.

Finally, when is Smith going to reintroduce the 632!!!!

I have been interested in the LCR .327 for the exact reason you say here. I am just worried that the ammo will all be gone a few years from now. From my perspective, the .327 Mag does not seem to have caught on as much as Ruger would have liked when they chambered the LCR for it. It is an interesting round, however and I would love to shoot one one day.

 

[DocB]

You are so right. Those new ones weigh nothing and will kick the mess out of you. My wife has one loaded with wadcutters which is doable. She also has a Terrier made in 1970. . .38S&W which I call the 38 Short. Handles about like a 22. That's the perfect handgun for backyard snakes and pests. Wish they still made them.

 

[L-2]

I've read a few posts which share my opinions on the matter (Posts 9, 11, 12, and others). I'm concerned about the initial post with "convincing" someone to get a CCW. For many people, male or female, getting a CCW is a big/major decision right there.

At this point, it may be enough to stop right there.

Depending on the state or locale, it may or may not be necessary to commit to a specific make/model/caliber. Choosing a specific carry-gun just adds to a person's time-money-stress. If a commitment to a specific handgun doesn't need to be selected up-front, then don't go there, yet.

If a specific handgun does need to be selected, perhaps just initially use something to pass any required qualification course. Some locales may have minimum caliber requirements, too.

The situation in this thread seems to be different from a female significant other who says, "I'm interested in guns, too. Help me get my CCW as it's something I decided I want. Secondly, I'm open to revolvers, semiautos, or both (some folks will already want a specific type and brand), and want to be as proficient as possible with this huge commitment, responsibility, and lifestyle change."

I'm wondering if the female is just saying yes to getting the CCW to avoid or end the discussion.