I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry today

[Mister X]

Eb07's friend went from being able to handle 0% of self defense situations to being able to handle 99.75% of self defense situations.

I'd say that's a pretty good jump.

Please continue to argue about how to handle the remaining 0.25%.

The OP stated she had some sort of incident with a crazy client. He didn't specify what line of work she was in she was in, but regardless of her profession, clients would generally indicate working in very close physical proximity. Not too many attackers will announce their violent intent from across the room, so she would have to handle the initial assault, be able to access the weapon and effectively use it in that environment. The kind of range shooting she was doing simply doesn't address and prepare her for the dynamics she is likely to encounter.

 

[sigp220.45]

The OP stated she had some sort of incident with a crazy client. He didn't specify what line of work she was in she was in, but regardless of her profession, clients would generally indicate working in very close physical proximity. Not too many attackers will announce their violent intent from across the room, so she would have to handle the initial assault, be able to access the weapon and effectively use it in that environment. The kind of range shooting she was doing simply doesn't address and prepare her for the dynamics she is likely to encounter.

Jeez, buddy. Give it a rest.

She has a gun. She knows how to shoot it.

Maybe in the next few years she'll develop a taste for EXCQWW with a dash of Krav Maga and a side of Brazilian Martial Arts. But probably not. She is better off now than she was before.

Do you have any actual real-world experience with any of this? Outside of the range or gym or dojo?

 

[Protected One]

eb07

Well done! Every new shooter should have someone to do EXACTLY what you did for her. We'd have a lot more people fall in love with shooting rather than fearing or avoiding it because it gives them no joy.


The Most Interesting Man in the World says - "Kings to YOU!"

 

[Wee Hooker]

Wow, this went from positive discussion to a squirting match in short order....

 

[Kanewpadle]

You are right, I am wrong. You got the last word. Cheers.

Don't worry about it. You did good. A gun, any gun will always be better than no gun.

Practice, training, and more practice are a good thing. You know that better than most. And since you yourself has successfully defended himself with a gun, you know what it takes to do so. Statistics show that many, many people have successfully defended themselves with very little gun knowledge. So don't let the so called experts dissuade you.

I'm willing to bet that the lady will eventually move up in caliber. But in the end she is the one that needs to have supreme confidence in what she uses for personal defense.

This survey is proof that having a gun and the willingness to use it are far more important than caliber.
https://tacticalprofessor.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/tac-5-year-w-tables.pdf

 

[smoothshooter]

Hello, I have to agree with your thoughts, I've let my wife try many different guns, lcr,jframes,shields,mp9c,glocks,NAA, and the only thing she will carry is a MP22 compact. Go figure!
Semper paratus

I don't blame her. I bought one of those about 8 months ago, and love it.

 

[wnderr]

I wish all of these .22 compacts were the size of the Walther P22, or slightly smaller. Some of them are full sized!

 

[Mister X]

Jeez, buddy. Give it a rest.

She has a gun. She knows how to shoot it.

Maybe in the next few years she'll develop a taste for EXCQWW with a dash of Krav Magam and a side of Brazilian Martial Arts. But probably not. She is better off now than she was before.

Do you have any actual real-world experience with any of this? Outside of the range or gym or dojo?

With this being a forum, I was under the impression that when someone made a post, discussion and debate were welcome and allowed. Apparently, some feel you should only post when you agree with the OP by giving him an attaboy.

I merely disagreed with what was presented to the woman in how to pick an appropriate carry weapon. She based her choice on a flawed premise. Give her a different perspective and context and maybe she chooses differently and I think she likely would. I give an alternative viewpoint and get snarky responses instead of rationale debate. If someone thinks I'm wrong, tell me why.

I don't think the woman has to engage in extensive ECQ or H2H training and I never said otherwise here. I do think the inherent advantages of an enclosed hammer snub does overcome many of the potential problems she would encounter in the context of her circumstances that were presented.

Again, she has "clients" and some sort of potentially violent encounter with a "crazy" one. Client in any sense indicates working in close proximity and that a violent physical assault is probably the most likely threat, rather than a shoot-out at 15 yards. How does continually working on proper stance, grip, trigger control in a static range setting help her defend herself when a "crazy client" has grabbed her by the hair and is beating the tar out of her or has thrown her down and is attempting to rape her? It doesn't.

My wife, mother and grandmother don't and have never trained regularly or intensely, but they do understand the most likely threats they will encounter and the nature of the problem and have subsequently learned some basic defense skills to hopefully not initially get completely over-whelmed and how to access their gun, use and retain it while under attack. Much can be learned in a single session and simply understanding the realities of the likely circumstances goes a long way. Static range work will not teach that and simply having a gun, any gun, is not always enough, especially in the circumstances as they were presented here, where the gun may not even factor in since she might not even be able to access it at all let alone effectively retain and use it.

I've presented my credentials and the experience that I think makes me qualified to make the statements that I do here and on other forums numerous times. It doesn't really matter, since I imagine many probably don't even believe it since I stay anonymous. My background is very different than most here and I present what seems a contrarian perspective from most gun centric range oriented folks, so I don't expect understanding or agreement and that doesn't matter to me. No, I've never actually shot anyone in any type of real-world scenario, but I don't think that matters. George Zimmerman has been shot at and shot more people(in ECQ no less) than probably 99% of defensive shooting instructors out there, but I don't think that somehow makes him more knowledgeable or qualified than them.

 

[fredj338]

My father, a decorated Army Airborne Ranger combat veteran (three bronze stars, a Presidential Citation, and about a pound of other stuff), usually packed either a Sterling 22LR pistol, or a Charter Arms Undercover. He told me more than once that a 22 will kill a man just as dead and just as fast as an Atom Bomb.

There is nothing wrong with his advice and I don't hesitate to carry either of his favorite little shooters from time to time.

And your point? My father also decorated airborne & retired LEO, often didn't even carry a gun off duty. Sure a 22lr will kill, so will a pointed stick, the issue is reliability of rim fire & stopping a violent attack. IMO, packing a 22lr is stupid when there are better choices.
I thin the issue with most people is they want a gun to feel safer but not wiling to put in the work & time to be proficient with a more reliable gun/caliber. No real free lunch with most things in life. If it is important to you, then get a suitable caliber gun & some training & put in some range time.

 

[wrkerr]

I carried a badge for many years in the little city of El Segundo, CA. In 1957 we had two officers make a routine traffic stop. All was code 4. One was seated in the passenger seat, the other leaning over the hood writing the citation. The violator pulled a handgun and shot and killed both of them.

What did he use? .22 SHORTS !!!!!!

That's all I'm saying. Don't care to enter a pi**ing contest. Draw your own conclusions.

(The killer was finally arrested and convicted in 2003.)

 

[keith44spl]

I picked up one of these for the grandsons to shoot...


I could use it to defend myself if that's what was handy at the time.


No worries

Browning 1911 22 LR Compact

I also like this ammunition, 40 gr HP 1435 FPS

.

 

[fredj338]

I carried a badge for many years in the little city of El Segundo, CA. In 1957 we had two officers make a routine traffic stop. All was code 4. One was seated in the passenger seat, the other leaning over the hood writing the citation. The violator pulled a handgun and shot and killed both of them.

What did he use? .22 SHORTS !!!!!!

That's all I'm saying. Don't care to enter a pi**ing contest. Draw your own conclusions.

(The killer was finally arrested and convicted in 2003.)

Yep a 22lr is very effective assassination round fired into the head at unsuspecting targets. You really think that under duress of an attack the generally unskilled/untrained victim is going to coolly place their shots into the bad guys head?? Then when the rim frie round fails to fire, quite common, they will coolly tap/rack & fire again??? Poor reliability alone is reason enough to never choose a rimfire for anything but squirrels & rabbits.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I consider myself above this fray, since the least I'll carry for personal protection is a NAA or Ruger LCR in .22 WMR . . .

 

[wrkerr]

Yep a 22lr is very effective assignation round fired into the head at unsuspecting targets. You really think that under duress of an attack the generally unskilled/untrained victim is going to coolly place their shots into the bad guys head?? Then when the rim frie round fails to fire, quite common, they will coolly tap/rack & fire again??? Poor reliability alone is reason enough to never choose a rimfire for anything but squirrels & rabbits.

Who said anything about head shots? They were all body shots. Tap, rack, fire again? It was a revolver. One officer lived long enough to return fire at the fleeing vehicle, HITTING THE KILLER IN THE BACK!

So logically we shouldn't carry .38 Specials either? Geez!

(Broke my own rule.)

 

[wrkerr]

eb07,

You did fine. Just about every female I instructed over the years was able to learn the basics with a .22. After that it was very easy to transition them to .38 wadcutters. Some stayed at that level, others moved up.

But the bottom line: they all then felt comfortable around firearms.

 

[adwjc]

...I always took my role as an instructor very seriously. The effectiveness of what I taught was potentially the difference between life and death for LEO's as well as ordinary citizens. Self-defense isn't a game or hobby...
oftentimes, people don't know what they don't know...

Friend, you are getting too deep into the weeds. At my club we have a gentleman who comes across as you do, he is an RSO, in fact he holds a CRSO rating as well as several "NRA Certified Trainer" ratings. He constantly paraded people he perceived as "rule violators" in front of the club Board of Directors, until he had to be told to chill out. What he doesn't have, is a single ounce of common sense nor any understanding of human nature. Is your name Rick by any chance?

 

[Mister X]

Friend, you are getting too deep into the weeds. At my club we have a gentleman who comes across as you do, he is an RSO, in fact he holds a CRSO rating as well as several "NRA Certified Trainer" ratings. He c,onstantly paraded people he perceived as "rule violators" in front of the club Board of Directors, until he had to be told to chill out. What he doesn't have, is a single ounce of common sense nor any understanding of human nature. Is your name Rick by any chance?

Nope, not him. And I'm not a defensive shooting instructor.

I don't see how anything I wrote is comparable to how you describe Rick. And how exactly do I lack common sense and not understand human nature based on what I wrote?

 

[Wise_A]

That you don't understand is sort've the point.

 

[keith44spl]

Nope, not him. And I'm not a defensive shooting instructor.

I don't see how anything I wrote is comparable to how you describe Rick. And how exactly do I lack common sense and not understand human nature based on what I wrote?

Well now, that just tells it all, don't it.


Another goes on the growing list of...well ya know.




.

 

[Ziggy2525]

...
And how exactly do I lack common sense and not understand human nature based on what I wrote?

You know, I may be the only one here that appreciates your content, but ... like you've even mentioned about yourself a couple times before, you have a pretty abrasive communication style. Also, the whole "nationally renowned defensive tactics instructor to remain nameless" thing seems a bit over the top. IMO, those things might be the answer to your questions above. But that's just my opinion.

Keep posting. I like the points you bring up even when I don't agree.