U.S. Air Force retires the last of its S&W Model 15 revolvers

[THE PILGRIM]

For some reason, some of you guys dont seem to believe that AF Air Policemen once carried 1911s.
What I didn't remember is they didn't have badges.
I know - we don't need no stinking badges!

 

[Texas Star]

For some reason, some of you guys dont seem to believe that AF Air Policemen once carried 1911s.
What I didn't remember is they didn't have badges.
I know - we don't need no stinking badges!

I DID wear the badge and was in the AF from 1963-1967. I don't know when the AP armbands were replaced with the badges, but I never saw the old armbands.

We were still called Air Police when I left. The SP designation probably arrived a year or two later.

I definitely did wear a .45 auto on occasion while stationed at Lowry AFB in Denver. The choice was that or a Victory Model we bummed from the Navy. There was one commercial Colt OP and one Colt Commando in the arms room. Investigators had Colt snubs with hammer shrouds.

One officer carried his own K-38/M-14 and another wore a Colt snub.

Later, in Newfoundland, all the handguns we had were .45 autos. The base and its gear would be given eventually to Canada, and I guess they didn't want to ship new stuff up there. No AR-15's, just old M-1 and M-2 carbines.

I saw M-15 S&W's at the USAF Academy while augmenting police there during a Presidential visit, and was trained on one, but when I was in, Air Training Command and Air Defense Command hadn't gotten the new M-15 yet. Some bases had enough for officers and senior NCO's. Everyone else had a S&W Victory Model or a Colt .38 or carried a .45 auto where that choice still existed.

Someone asked about holster color. By the 1960's, it was black. But my bosses didn't seem to notice unofficial holsters, so I wore what I wanted. Some guys who'd been in Vietnam had buscadero style gun belts made there.

 

[poorbroker]

I carried a S&W Mod. 15 every time we were dispatched to a Missile Site during the my time in the USAF at a SAC Base to change the Top Sec targets on our Minuteman Missiles. It was a 2 man targeting team and we could never let the TAPES with Targeting Data out of our site. We were trained to shoot the other team member if there was any breach of Security. Of course I never heard of anyone getting shot but it did make me a S&W man.

 

[Texas Star]

Question????
I'm retired Army, so I know that what is standard operating procedure isn't always what happens. Having said that, were all the U.S. Airforce Model 15 revolvers marked "US Airforce"???
Also, did the Airforce every order M15s in Nickel?????

I think all had either U.S.A.F. or US markings, and all I saw had target hammers and triggers. That includes one worn by an OSI agent with whom I worked.

The only nickel .38's I know of were refinished Victory Models worn by the cops at SAC HQ at Offutt AFB, Nebraska. Those had fake stag grips and were worn in crossdraw holsters on blue web belts with wide nickel (?) buckles with USAF insignia.They also got the blue berets first.

I saw a photo of one in formation with the stag grips in a larger size, more like S&W target stocks. Maybe that's what the supplier shipped to fill one order. Most such stocks were the normal Magna size. I think that larger one was sold as the Fitz Gunfighter model. The others may have been Franzite.

It's possible that M-15's in nickel were also furnished. I just don't know.

 

[adwjc]

Not to hijack the tread but was the model 15 ever offered commercially with target trigger and target hammer?

Yes indeed they were. Bought one at a police distributer in NJ in 1975 for the princely sum of $115.00. Still have it.

 

[Texas Star]

The weaponry makes me think they were Army Military Police.

I think you may be right. I think I recall that being the arms carried by MP's in the movie, The Presidio. If I have the right film in mind...

Did the women's holsters resemble the Civil War style, butt forward?

We didn't have female Air Police when I was in. Those seen since in photos had the usual issue holster on a swivel that was USAF norm.

 

[Texas Star]

What M15s are left would be in storage at the Anniston (AL) Army Depot. It has been over 10 years ago since I was involved in such things, but at that time where were not nearly 100K of them there. I personally converted quite a few of them to "Inert" status for use by honor guards, etc. by welding up the guts and plugging the bores.

USAF Security Forces training is done at the SF training center at Camp Bullis in San Antonio. All working dog training is done at the Medina Annex of Lackland AFB. I used to work at the USAF Gunsmith Shop right next to the dog training center. A great location if you like constant barking.

All USAF small arms logistics functions are handled at Robins AFB, Warner Robins GA.

Well, that's changed then. I went through both Basic and AP School at Lackland. I was second man in my class and still have a certificate for academic excellence. I was called on stage at graduation and received that from the school commander.

Thanks for the update.

 

[tipoc]

Yep!



1971 Camp Bullis, Texas. SP qualifications.

 

[kwill1911]

From this:

to this:

 

[Breakaway500]

^ Ug..that makes me want to cry!!!!!

 

[S-W4EVER]

I think you may be right. I think I recall that being the arms carried by MP's in the movie, The Presidio. If I have the right film in mind...

Did the women's holsters resemble the Civil War style, butt forward?

We didn't have female Air Police when I was in. Those seen since in photos had the usual issue holster on a swivel that was USAF norm.

When I was at Bragg in '75, a lot of the female MP's wore open holsters that they purchased from local LE supply. I don't remember any flap holsters (although I doubt any flap holsters were butt forward at that time).

As far as my interaction with USAF SP's, my experience only encompassed three years, 1973-76. I'm aware that the AF left the Army in 1948 but that's a little before my time. One thing I've learned about the Military though, anything is possible when it comes to weaponry (and they seem to have tightened things up since 9/11). My youngest daughter is a 1LT and the only issued weapon she has an M4 (no pistols, as was the custom back in my day).

I bought both girls Colt M4's when they graduated BCT and Beretta M9A1's when they graduated AIT though (just so they could stay proficient). I know how tight Sam is with his weaponry.

BTW, the first Browning Hi-Power I ever saw was in the holster of a 2LT in ROK. Good Officer, good times...

 

[BB57]

As a kid l grew up at the end of Charleston AF Base runway on Midland

Park Rd... Mama worked at Base Supply for MATS. Got to go on base

many many times too. Anyway we always had to stop at the gate for

the APs to check ID.. They even had girl Air Police!! Lady APs carried

round butt 38spcl S&W revolvers on a lanyard.. Guys had Colt 1911s.

I worked as a civilian instructor at EAFB for a couple years. A group of us car pooled one particular day for a staff meeting. I drove, collected the IDs and handed them to the SP. He looked at each ID looked and each of us and handed them back. I then had the passenger re-distribute them to their owners.

Later one of the riders called me while I was on base as she was stuck at the gate. They wouldn't let her in because she had my ID. I checked "mine" and sure enough it had a picture of a black woman on it. SPs had been looking at that ID, looking at me, and handing it back for FOUR MONTHS.

The SPs had M9s at that point.

 

[BB57]

"Though the M15 has been an available option as a blank-firing training aid, one has to imagine the costs and complexities of continuing to use a small number of these revolvers, and the ammunition to go with them, has grown over the years. No other service still uses these guns or any other weapon chambered in .38 caliber. Having the AFSFC's K9 program use the same pistols as everyone else can only make things simpler all around."

I have to agree it is next to impossible for me to keep my K frames running and getting .38 caliber ammunition is a real chore (tongue firmly in cheek).

I had the same thought. It's a typical bureaucratic justification, one that ignores the facts such as:

1) The same cleaning kits work with the M9, M18 and Model 15;

2) The cost for .38 blank ammo is comparable to 9mm blank ammunition;

3) The US military doesn't issue 9mm Para blank ammo, just;
Cartridge, 9mm, Ball, NATO, M882
Cartridge, 9mm, High Pressure Test, M905
Cartridge, 9mm, Dummy, M917; and

4) The cost of procuring a small number of blank firing adapters for the M18 for K-9 training will far outstrip the costs of keeping the Model 15 in service for another 50 years. And that's not counting the cost of the replacement M18 pistols themselves.


-----

At least the Model 15 will out live the M9 in USAF service. I hated the M9. Still do.

 

[stansdds]

That's great and I am a huge fan of Herrett's Shooting Star revolver stocks. They look good and fit my hand remarkably well.

From this:

to this:

And now I'll cry for a while. That is so sad and such a waste.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

1971 Camp Burris, Texas. SP qualifications.[/QUOTE]

Never heard of a Camp Burris.
There is a or was a Camp Bullis.
North side of San Antonio.

 

[ispcapt]

Yep!



1971 Camp Burris, Texas. SP qualifications.

In 1971 the females were most likely in Law Enforcement and not Security Police Different AFSCs and even came under different chains of command. LE came under the old Combat Support Squadron where the SPs came under one of the operations squadrons. LE did things like Pass and ID and some security postings. SPs did the base security. They might augment each other at times but they were separate. Unless you were in one of the other AFSC even people on a base likely never knew the difference.
The Security Police career field changed titles to Security Forces and LE was then moved under the SF field along with the Combat Arms Training and Maintenance field.
I was LE for 2 years, Army MP for 2 years, SP/SF for 5 years, then 10 years after I was commissioned went back into SF as the SF commander.

 

[tipoc]

Pilgrim is correct Camp Bullis, my bad.

 

[ABPOS]

I think all had either U.S.A.F. or US markings, and all I saw had target hammers and triggers. That includes one worn by an OSI agent with whom I worked.

The only nickel .38's I know of were refinished Victory Models worn by the cops at SAC HQ at Offutt AFB, Nebraska. Those had fake stag grips and were worn in crossdraw holsters on blue web belts with wide nickel (?) buckles with USAF insignia.They also got the blue berets first.

I saw a photo of one in formation with the stag grips in a larger size, more like S&W target stocks. Maybe that's what the supplier shipped to fill one order. Most such stocks were the normal Magna size. I think that larger one was sold as the Fitz Gunfighter model. The others may have been Franzite.

It's possible that M-15's in nickel were also furnished. I just don't know.

I thought these pics would be appropriate. Being worth a 1000 words and all. I have no clue if they're all nickel, some look blued but also don't know if they are victories or 15's. Just the fake stag grips seem to be evident.

 

[El Biblioitecario]

I am pondering the economics of discarding a on-hand weapon used for firing blanks in training, which will require purchasing blank firing adapters for the self loading pistols. (I am assuming the Hundfuhrer has to keep one hand on their partner, so cannot cycle the slide by hand.) I would have kept the revolvers and used the cost savings to provide ear protection, which in the photo seems to be lacking.

 

[ordnanceguy]

I thought these pics would be appropriate. Being worth a 1000 words and all. I have no clue if they're all nickel, some look blued but also don't know if they are victories or 15's. Just the fake stag grips seem to be evident.

All of the photos shown are taken of Strategic Air Command Elite Guard Air Police, except for the last image. The Elite Guard used plated Victory Models with Franzite stocks. Except for the 4th and 5th color images, the lanyard rings on the butts of the revolvers can be seen. In USAF service lanyard rings were not found on Model 15 revolvers.

The last image does not show Air Force personnel with Model 15 revolvers. Rather, that photo shows late war (1945) carrier based Naval Aviators with Victory Model revolvers.