It’s been stated everywhere that there is no such thing as Stopping Power or Knock Down Power.
So that being the case, what DO you call it?
So that being the case, what DO you call it?
Stopping Power - Knock Down Power
- Thread starter Kanewpadle
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There's no such thing as Stopping or Knock down power so you first have to identify what you're trying to name.
OP
Exactly my point.
ElectroMotive
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When it comes to pullet performance, terminal performance (aka what bullets do in bodies), you have to under that only two things are occuring to make a pistol round "work".
1. Penetration - How deep the bullet buries itself, thus destroying or disrupting vital organs, the central nervous system, arteries, major blood bearing vessels.
2. Expansion - The larger the wound the more damage is caused.
The problem is you have to have a balance of the two. Too much penetration, through-and-throughs are possible though not likely. Too much expansion, and the bullet wont go deep enough, leading to the possible need for more shots. Considering the two, I will opt for more penetration everytime. If accuracy is king, penetration is queen. That said, in most service pistol calibers; 9mm, .40, .357S/M, 45acp you can have both. In cartridges like .380, not so much. In cartridges like .38spec, its difficult.
I keep my 9mm pistols loaded with 147gr HST
I keep my .38spec 15-3 loaded with 158gr+P LSWCHP from Remington
I keep my 638-2 loaded with 148gr HBWC from Remington
I keep my .45s loaded with 230+P HST
When I get a .40S&W, it will e loaded with 180gr HST
1. Penetration - How deep the bullet buries itself, thus destroying or disrupting vital organs, the central nervous system, arteries, major blood bearing vessels.
2. Expansion - The larger the wound the more damage is caused.
The problem is you have to have a balance of the two. Too much penetration, through-and-throughs are possible though not likely. Too much expansion, and the bullet wont go deep enough, leading to the possible need for more shots. Considering the two, I will opt for more penetration everytime. If accuracy is king, penetration is queen. That said, in most service pistol calibers; 9mm, .40, .357S/M, 45acp you can have both. In cartridges like .380, not so much. In cartridges like .38spec, its difficult.
I keep my 9mm pistols loaded with 147gr HST
I keep my .38spec 15-3 loaded with 158gr+P LSWCHP from Remington
I keep my 638-2 loaded with 148gr HBWC from Remington
I keep my .45s loaded with 230+P HST
When I get a .40S&W, it will e loaded with 180gr HST
#1 is correct. Bullets kill / "stop" people by blowing holes in central nervous system, or by blowing holes in big vessels and depressurizing the cardiovascular system. Shot placement and penetration are all that count.
#2 not really. The ER doctor and medical examiner can't tell, from the entrance, exit, or wound track, what caliber or weight it was, or whether it expanded or not. Many handgun bullets fail to expand. You can't tell any of this unless you recover the bullet. Bullets that have killed people usually don't look anything like the flowers and mushrooms in the ammo ads.
All this is why I load FMJ in my carry gunss.
Stopping power is the ability to hit your target accurately.Knock down power is hitting them a second time if necessary..
double-dipper
Member
I have killed close too 100 deer and one elk in my life using archery, muzzle loaders, shotgun slugs, center fire rifles and last year handgun. When it comes to "Knock Down Power" yes there is a such thing as "Knock Down Power" I have shot deer that dropped like a brick. The bullet of course went through the front shoulders (bone) the one elk I shot with a .54 caliber black powder rifle dropped where it was standing. How does this correlate to a human threat? when the bullet crushes bone matter or brain matter the body goes down.
"Making that other fella' decide he's got something better to do at the moment . . . "
I know it's long, but it's an industry term . . .
I know it's long, but it's an industry term . . .
Ziggy2525
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“Everywhere” is wrong. There is a such thing as stopping power and knock down power. It just doesn’t exist in pistol rounds. If it did, you wouldn’t be able to shoot the pistol without getting knocked down yourself
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You may get one or two opinions on this one. 
Literally speaking, defining "knockdown power" is easy - for every action there is (or should be) an equal and opposite reaction. If shooting a gun doesn't generate enough energy to make the shooter fall over, it cannot make the target fall over if it is of roughly equal mass, or even a substantial fraction.
The effects of the projectile(s) in the target may cause all sorts of damage that may cause it to fall, but it is not the recoil energy that does this. If you shot a .600 (or better still, a .700) Nitro Express into a 150 lb target that was able to contain all the bullet's energy you might see it fall over. Maybe both barrels of a 10 ga double too?
Likewise, "stopping power" is also subjective. In 95% + of self defense incidents, any gun has 100% stopping power, because no shots needed to be fired. In the many of the remaining instances the noise or a non-serious (but still painful) effects of a shot will end the situation for psychological reasons.
But if you are referring to commonly carried handgun use, none of them can be counted upon to immediately stop a threat reliably close to 100% of the time, especially with one shot. This has been documented here numerous times by LEOs. That is why fast, accurate, multiple hits in vital areas with any handgun is the goal; and this still may not work all the time.
Literally speaking, defining "knockdown power" is easy - for every action there is (or should be) an equal and opposite reaction. If shooting a gun doesn't generate enough energy to make the shooter fall over, it cannot make the target fall over if it is of roughly equal mass, or even a substantial fraction.
The effects of the projectile(s) in the target may cause all sorts of damage that may cause it to fall, but it is not the recoil energy that does this. If you shot a .600 (or better still, a .700) Nitro Express into a 150 lb target that was able to contain all the bullet's energy you might see it fall over. Maybe both barrels of a 10 ga double too?
Likewise, "stopping power" is also subjective. In 95% + of self defense incidents, any gun has 100% stopping power, because no shots needed to be fired. In the many of the remaining instances the noise or a non-serious (but still painful) effects of a shot will end the situation for psychological reasons.
But if you are referring to commonly carried handgun use, none of them can be counted upon to immediately stop a threat reliably close to 100% of the time, especially with one shot. This has been documented here numerous times by LEOs. That is why fast, accurate, multiple hits in vital areas with any handgun is the goal; and this still may not work all the time.
I survived three deadly force confrontations in my 30 years, all while armed w/my issued thirty-eight revolver. The first two were w/158 grain round nose standard pressure and the last one was w/the 158 grain hollow point +P. In one instance the suspect was dropped w/one round of round nose lead standard pressure, in another the suspect kept fighting through four rounds of round nose high pressure before being subdued w/a blackjack. In my last instance I brought the bad guy down w/three rounds of the +P FBI load. Based on my own experience “stopping power” is a myth.
While I have never had a deadly confrontation and I pray I never do, I have taken a fair number of deer with my handguns, including 44 Mag (S&W and Rugers) 30-30 and 357 Herrett in Contenders and well as with rifle and shotguns. In some cases, you can shoot and even though you make a good shot, the deer will sit and stare at you like nothing happened. In other cases the deer will run and how far just depends on shot placement. You also read the same about gun fights where the bad guy will absorb a lot of rounds and it doesn't seem to phase them. I guess that while the idea of stopping power sounds good, shot placement has more to do with it than the power of the round. That being said, if I had to be in a gunfight, I still think that I would want one of my 44 or 45's with me than anything smaller.
642_PC
Member
So, in the first case, stopping power was the result but was not guaranteed. That result occurred by a combination of factors, including the location of the wound and the performance of that particular projectile. Your final statement is true in that there is no combination within reason that always results in stopping power. Many of the other replies seem to corroborate this.
Eski
Member
Stopping the threat.
For me, it’s which round can I fire most accurately, the fastest, and has the best tested performance. That round will have the best “stopping power” for me.
The last part I unfortunately have to rely on internet youtube stars. Generally when choosing a new round for carry / defense I do lots of research online first. That always leads to me watching ballistic tests... both for entertainment and to have at least some idea about the penetration / expansion.
I do not do my own ballistic testing, but I do have a chronograph which allows me to at least compare the velocities I get to the velocities found in the tests.
So once I find a round I shoot well and has (to the best of my research abilities) displayed good performance, I run on average 150-200 rounds through my gun to make sure it functions. Far fewer when picking a round for a revolver.
For me, it’s which round can I fire most accurately, the fastest, and has the best tested performance. That round will have the best “stopping power” for me.
The last part I unfortunately have to rely on internet youtube stars. Generally when choosing a new round for carry / defense I do lots of research online first. That always leads to me watching ballistic tests... both for entertainment and to have at least some idea about the penetration / expansion.
I do not do my own ballistic testing, but I do have a chronograph which allows me to at least compare the velocities I get to the velocities found in the tests.
So once I find a round I shoot well and has (to the best of my research abilities) displayed good performance, I run on average 150-200 rounds through my gun to make sure it functions. Far fewer when picking a round for a revolver.
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