Evaluating the .38 Spl+P FBI Load/Gelatin overreliance

[Doug.38PR]

What is your concern about Buffalo Bore?

While it is a very powerful and effective load:

1) It elevates your gun to near magnum level velocities. While it is still within +P standards it can cause that much more accelerated wear on the gun. For medium size service revolvers this is not so big a deal, but for a 2 inch D frame or J frame, I'd be a little more hesitant.

2) Because of my what I said in #1 and because they are extremely expensive, it's not a round you can practice with regularly so the point-of-aim might be off some. Not ideal.

3) Because they are so powerful, they kick pretty hard even in a 4 inch. While this is no big deal if you are used to .357 Magnum in 4 inch, it is that much harder to control in a 2 inch.

4) This is a point Paul Harrell raised on his hyper-ammo video on youtube. If you use hyper ammo, such as Buffalo Bore, RIP, Zombie Killer, Black Talons, Underwood, etc. it might serve as inflammitory figurative legal ammunition for leftist anti-gun prosecutors or chief's of police looking to make your defending yourself and family into an act of aggression against a "poor innocent youth" to advance his political career. A "Look at the crazy gun nut that had to get special ammo to murder poor Tablakius Bo Bo Smith who was only 17 years old just made a little mistake by committing armed robbery and this crazy gun nut wanted to murder him by carrying this nasty ammunition" scenario.

Federal, Remington and Winchester +P versions are adequately powerful enough and are more controllable, easier, inexpensive and in common use with a proven and accepted record.

 

[Doug.38PR]

I saw one for sale at the Oaks, Pa gun show back in February for $595. Like an idiot I didn’t buy it right away, and when I went back it was sold. Still kicking myself. Dealer said he had three of them at the start of the show, they went fast.

I carried Winchester .38 FBI load in my revolvers for well over 10 years. At one time I had several cases of it, now all I have left are a couple of boxes. I switched to the 135 grain GDHP in 2009 because I was having a hard time getting more of the FBI load.

If you are dead set on getting Winchester FBI, then it is plentiful on Lucky Gunner and Cheaperthandirt. But it's like $1 a round when you take shipping and taxes into it. Simmons Sporting Goods in Louisiana also has plenty of it (I think you can order online or go directly to the store). Again it's like $1 a round. That's why I went with Federal version. They are between $20-25 for a box of $50.

 

[Doug.38PR]

Off-topic, but I was always intrigued by the 2.5" Model 10s the FBI issued for a while.

Back on topic (sort of)...I believe those Winchester FBI loads were the same ones I carried in my 4" Model 10 some 20+ years ago when I worked as an armed guard. The company I worked for issued either 158gr LRN or SWC (I can't remember which), but I went to my manager with a box of these and he gave me permission to carry them. 6 rounds in the gun plus 2 speedloaders on my duty belt. Working at a bank in the bank robbery capital of the US at the time, I felt adequately armed. Fortunately, I never had to use them.

20+ years ago (1990s) somebody was still issuing LRN ammo for service revolvers?

 

[Doug.38PR]

Doug,
I'm with you all the way. I understand the logic behind the 4 layers of denim for the FBI, and agree with it entirely...... For the FBI; but the same doesn't work for me. First, I fear that this could lead to under penetration if the threat were wearing nothing but a white t-shirt, Common in the deep South, in warmer months. Also, since this new testing method has popped up, many old tried and true rounds have suddenly been dubbed duds, despite their history. (158gr LSWC +P, 129gr hydro-shok, 125gr scalloped SJHP......)
But then again, I've never been too trendy of fasionalble. I carry Remington HTP 110gr +P in my snubby, and 158 gr in my 4".

Exactly, it's like we've suddenly taken real world demonstrations that have proven established rounds and thrown it in the trash because laboratory studies and tests tell us different.
There is a story behind the 9BPLE+P+ that is on various forums from a former Illinois State Trooper that discusses the early development of the round in the early 80s. Worked well in real world shootings and produced good results. The ISP took this information to the FBI and the FBI dismissed it in favor of their lab results that showed the 9mm Silvertip to be the best. Well, a few years later in 1986 a little shootout happened in Miami that caused the FBI learn the hard way what the ISP learned several years before and learned from. (Interestingly that Miami Shootout was ended by an agent shooting the .38 FBI load effectively)

 

[Doug.38PR]

For what little value it might add to this very interesting thread, here is a pic of some FBI loads actually issued to me by the FBI.

When the Bureau deemed revolvers verboten around 2000 there were still cases of this sitting around, even though the issued round by then was the Federal 147 grain +P+ Hydrashok. The Division PFI sent it out to his minion Firearms Instructors and said shoot it or give it to your local PDs, just don’t sell it. I bought a Marlin .357 lever action and commenced exploding gophers. One day I missed a big sassy buck gopher at a range of about ten feet. There bore of that little Marlin was just a shiny lead smoothbore tube. It took forever to clean it out.

This is usually what I carry in my snubs.

BTW, FBI revolvers could be had in 2”, 2 1/2”, 3”, 3 1/2”, and 4” barrels and the ammo had to be effective in all of them.

Good story. And exactly my point. They were proven effective in those barrel lengths for decades.


Also worth nothing is that the FBI Load did not exactly start with the FBI in the 70s. .38 LSWCHP ammo started as early as the late 1950s and, back then, was favored by policemen who could use it and frowned on by the more political element as being a "Murder's Bullet" because of the tissue damage it did from when the cavity opened. In 1960 Handgunner's Guide by Chic Gaylord, he illustrates and discusses that ammo briefly.

 

[sigp220.45]

While it is a very powerful and effective load:

1) It elevates your gun to near magnum level velocities. While it is still within +P standards it can cause that much more accelerated wear on the gun. For medium size service revolvers this is not so big a deal, but for a 2 inch D frame or J frame, I'd be a little more hesitant.

J frame .38s are very strong little guns. The five shot cylinder puts the bolt notches between the chambers instead of over them, and there is basically no forcing cone to worry about.

I qualified with a Model 36 and +P+ ammo for years. The gun is still as tight as ever. I think you'd succumb to carpal tunnel syndrome before the gun would break.

 

[ContinentalOp]

To address your points...

1) Your talking about Buffalo Bore's +P ammo. Their standard pressure version of the FBI load, their 158gr LSWCHP, has the same velocity as the original FBI load, so any gun that can handle +P can safely handle this load.

2) There's no need to practice with it. I ran a box through it to make sure it was reliable and that I could shoot it well, then used cheaper ammo for practice. I used PMC 132gr FMJ for most of my practice, and Speer 158gr TMJ +P when I wanted to simulate the extra "kick" or, in your case, want to keep POI the same.

3) Again, if you're talking about the +P version of BB's FBI load then yes, it kicks very hard. I fired 5 rounds of that ammo through my 642. My first thought: "Well...I'm never doing THAT again!" But the standard pressure version is very controllable. Even when I had steel K-frames I chose the standard pressure version over the +P version because it gave me noticeably faster follow-up shots. If you can handle the FBI loads from other makers, you can handle BB's standard pressure version.

4) The same arguments can be made just because you're using hollowpoints, or even ammo used by LE. If you're unlucky enough to get into this situation, a good defense attorney should be able to shoot down such arguments. Well, you may have difficulty with something called "Zombie Killer."

Now, having said that, there's nothing wrong with using the FBI loads made by other makers. I actually wouldn't have an issue with carrying the Remington version myself. If you're more comfortable carrying Federal, Remington, or Winchester, than go for it.

While it is a very powerful and effective load:

1) It elevates your gun to near magnum level velocities. While it is still within +P standards it can cause that much more accelerated wear on the gun. For medium size service revolvers this is not so big a deal, but for a 2 inch D frame or J frame, I'd be a little more hesitant.

2) Because of my what I said in #1 and because they are extremely expensive, it's not a round you can practice with regularly so the point-of-aim might be off some. Not ideal.

3) Because they are so powerful, they kick pretty hard even in a 4 inch. While this is no big deal if you are used to .357 Magnum in 4 inch, it is that much harder to control in a 2 inch.

4) This is a point Paul Harrell raised on his hyper-ammo video on youtube. If you use hyper ammo, such as Buffalo Bore, RIP, Zombie Killer, Black Talons, Underwood, etc. it might serve as inflammitory figurative legal ammunition for leftist anti-gun prosecutors or chief's of police looking to make your defending yourself and family into an act of aggression against a "poor innocent youth" to advance his political career. A "Look at the crazy gun nut that had to get special ammo to murder poor Tablakius Bo Bo Smith who was only 17 years old just made a little mistake by committing armed robbery and this crazy gun nut wanted to murder him by carrying this nasty ammunition" scenario.

Federal, Remington and Winchester +P versions are adequately powerful enough and are more controllable, easier, inexpensive and in common use with a proven and accepted record.

 

[Doug.38PR]

To address your points...



4) The same arguments can be made just because you're using hollowpoints, or even ammo used by LE. If you're unlucky enough to get into this situation, a good defense attorney should be able to shoot down such arguments. Well, you may have difficulty with something called "Zombie Killer."

For the first three, I WAS talking about +P version of Buffalo Bore.

As for 4, that is true. However, it being Buffalo Bore, RIP, Corbons, etc or some other type of hyper-ammo from a wildcat company only adds a variable that can avoid trouble. Not saying any of those things are bad or that I absolutely wouldn't use them, but I prefer to use Buffalo Bore for backup if I feel I need extra power.
For LE ammo, the same thing could happen, yes.

This is why I choose something in between. Common major ammo maker that makes old school but proven ammo that's no longer in wide use by LE but has a good record and is inexpensive.

 

[Doug.38PR]

J frame .38s are very strong little guns. The five shot cylinder puts the bolt notches between the chambers instead of over them, and there is basically no forcing cone to worry about.

I qualified with a Model 36 and +P+ ammo for years. The gun is still as tight as ever. I think you'd succumb to carpal tunnel syndrome before the gun would break.

I have no doubt that it's safe to shoot in a J frame especially a steel frame. Even Buffalo Bore's site shows that, if I recall right. I'd heard rumors about even +P+ or the old .38-44 Hi-Speed behind blasted through little J frames way back. Never sure if there was anything to it.

But I'd be fore concerned about accelerated wear like cylinder endshake from that kind of battering.

 

[rockquarry]

Before there was a +P designation, many fired some pretty hot factory .38 Special ammo through J-frames, both steel and airweight models. Same for Colt snub nose guns. Few, if any, questioned the suitability of such ammo in these small revolvers. If ".38 Special" was stamped on a gun, it was okay for use with any .38 Special ammo, or at least that was the belief.

No one obsessed over such things then as they do today. However, forty or so years ago, most shooters probably fired fewer rounds than they might shoot today. The hottest factory stuff in the early '70s was the Norma 110 grain .38 Special. According to an old HANDLOADER article, pressure of this load was around 27,000 as I recall. I'm pretty sure such cartridges were fired in more than a few J-frames.

 

[Doug.38PR]

Before there was a +P designation, many fired some pretty hot factory .38 Special ammo through J-frames, both steel and airweight models. Same for Colt snub nose guns. Few, if any, questioned the suitability of such ammo in these small revolvers. If ".38 Special" was stamped on a gun, it was okay for use with any .38 Special ammo, or at least that was the belief.

No one obsessed over such things then as they do today. However, forty or so years ago, most shooters probably fired fewer rounds than they might shoot today. The hottest factory stuff in the early '70s was the Norma 110 grain .38 Special. According to an old HANDLOADER article, pressure of this load was around 27,000 as I recall. I'm pretty such cartridges were fired in more than a few J-frames.

I’ve even heard it suggested (I think from SaxonPig among others) that +P is really not a hot load and in fact is actually more like what the original .38 Special standard was 50 years ago before ammo companies started downloading their ammo). I’ve heard similar comments regarding the .357 Magnum but I have no proof.

 

[Bill Lear]

I have been using the above said load in Remington for the past 14 years in both my 4 inch and snub nose .38 revolvers in both Colt and S&W.

The legendary and proven 158 gr LSWCHP in .38 Spl+P or “FBI Load” as it’s often called for short.

Anyway, I have noticed over the past few years discussions and videos concerning the above said round demonstrating that it “won’t expand out of 2 inch barrels”. These discussions and demonstrations revolve around it’s performance in a block of gelatin (with sometimes some old blue jeans or a few water jugs thrown in)

But is that really a fair or accurate appraisal? 1) genations of real world shootings on live human bodies with flesh, bone, water, tissue, blood, etc. show the FBI Load to expand exceptionally well out of both 2 and 4 inch revolvers. 2) some of these same gelatin tests also “show” other field proven rounds like the 9BPLE 115 gr +p+ JHP or .357 Magnum 125 gr SJHP as having poor penetration and/or weak expansion (which is certainly not the case in real life shootings). Then the experts will jump to their favorite latest greatest round with some star sword or vicious animal or zombi killer name.

Based on all this, would it be accurate to say that gelatin, while useful, is overused and over relied on? And field reports on real world shootings going way back under appreciated?

I invite you to follow this link, or if you prefer, go to YouTube and search for "Paul Harrell .38 Special."
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8u2EoWTw3U&list=PLU3K98y0SVS8c2o5FI3mp7LTAtUaRgS_1"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8u2EoWTw3U&list=PLU3K98y0SVS8c2o5FI3mp7LTAtUaRgS_1[/ame]

Harrell does a great job of testing 38 special loads and uses a much more realistic testing medium - the "meat target," to ascertain how the bullets will perform from different barrels. For those intend to confine their shooting to large Jellyfish, gelatin testing is perfectly appropriate, but humans have very little "gel" inside them - same for bears.

While I certainly appreciate gel testing as a predictor of performance and a way to compare, it's not by any means meant to "show" terminal bullet performance on actual 200+ dangerous animals such as humans. It's currently fashionable to include a few layers of cloth over the gel, yet for some reason few seem interested in including a "rack of bones" a few inches inside, or better still, a multi-compound target made of up large bags of fresh chicken fat packed up to about 8-12" depth to "simulate" a large human (fat) abdomen, THEN a layer of home air filter material to "simulate" the greater omentum, with an assortment of "simulated organs" molded from a more dense gel. I think THAT would be a good way to find out just how wonderful all these high-expanding hollow-points might perform - oh and make sure there's a few layers of cloth over the front. This might sound foolish until I remind you of the South Carolina Trooper confronted with EXACTLY such a shooting situation! A large-bellied man with a generous layer of body fat. Despite having FIVE rounds of 357 magnum 125 grain HPs pumped into him at nearly point-blank range, he was still able to crawl along the ground and attempt a "finishing shot" on the Trooper! So he was "down" but still trying hard to continue the fight. Those bullet had to go through a lot of stomach fat which isn't at all like gelatin...it has no structure, just simply slumps into a viscous goo...very much like HUMAN fat. I'm sure it saps a lot of steam out of any bullet.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FraE77l4fI"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FraE77l4fI[/ame]

I like Paul Harrell's testing....he uses meat and ribs and organ simulation - and leather and fabric in an attempt to really find out what these various wonder-loads will do. It's interesting to compare his tests which are every bit as "standardized" as the gel tests on Lucky Gunner, to get a better picture of how any load MIGHT perform. He doesn't just SAY the 38 LSWC is a good load, he takes you through the process so YOU can decide if YOU believe the data presented.

 

[Steve912]

I’ve even heard it suggested (I think from SaxonPig among others) that +P is really not a hot load and in fact is actually more like what the original .38 Special standard was 50 years ago before ammo companies started downloading their ammo). I’ve heard similar comments regarding the .357 Magnum but I have no proof.

If you doubt the standards for .38 Special have been downgraded
over the years, take a look at some older loading manuals.

Lots of older "starting loads" are beyond max loads, in newer
manuals.

Use of ammo in an unknown population of older & weaker
designed revolvers and popularity of liability lawsuits drive
that train.

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

Harrell does a great job of testing 38 special loads and uses a much more realistic testing medium - the "meat target," to ascertain how the bullets will perform from different barrels. For those intend to confine their shooting to large Jellyfish, gelatin testing is perfectly appropriate, but humans have very little "gel" inside them - same for bears.

Here is a Canadian RCMP test that includes pig ribs embedded in 10% gelatin.
and
Here is a study comparing actual penetration depths observed in police shootings to 10% gelatin.

10% gelatin was developed to provide the same forces against the penetrating bullet as swine muscle tissue and muscle tissue, not fat, is supposed to be the most difficult soft tissue to penetrate.

Lastly, muscles undergo degenerative changes after death -- "stiffs" is slang for corpses for good reason -- that make dead meat an invalid simulant for live tissue. In order to have a chance at being valid "meat" testing must use a live or freshly killed animal.

 

[Biggfoot44]

It's not only a matter of liability caution . In recent decades .38spl revolvers predominantly sold are heavily skewed to small frame snubs, frequently with lightweight alloy frames . There is consumer demand for "defensive ammo " that is more controllable / less painful to shoot .

 

[Doug.38PR]

I invite you to follow this link, or if you prefer, go to YouTube and search for "Paul Harrell .38 Special."
YouTube

Harrell does a great job of testing 38 special loads and uses a much more realistic testing medium - the "meat target," to ascertain how the bullets will perform from different barrels. For those intend to confine their shooting to large Jellyfish, gelatin testing is perfectly appropriate, but humans have very little "gel" inside them - same for bears.

While I certainly appreciate gel testing as a predictor of performance and a way to compare, it's not by any means meant to "show" terminal bullet performance on actual 200+ dangerous animals such as humans. It's currently fashionable to include a few layers of cloth over the gel, yet for some reason few seem interested in including a "rack of bones" a few inches inside, or better still, a multi-compound target made of up large bags of fresh chicken fat packed up to about 8-12" depth to "simulate" a large human (fat) abdomen, THEN a layer of home air filter material to "simulate" the greater omentum, with an assortment of "simulated organs" molded from a more dense gel. I think THAT would be a good way to find out just how wonderful all these high-expanding hollow-points might perform - oh and make sure there's a few layers of cloth over the front. This might sound foolish until I remind you of the South Carolina Trooper confronted with EXACTLY such a shooting situation! A large-bellied man with a generous layer of body fat. Despite having FIVE rounds of 357 magnum 125 grain HPs pumped into him at nearly point-blank range, he was still able to crawl along the ground and attempt a "finishing shot" on the Trooper! So he was "down" but still trying hard to continue the fight. Those bullet had to go through a lot of stomach fat which isn't at all like gelatin...it has no structure, just simply slumps into a viscous goo...very much like HUMAN fat. I'm sure it saps a lot of steam out of any bullet.
YouTube

I like Paul Harrell's testing....he uses meat and ribs and organ simulation - and leather and fabric in an attempt to really find out what these various wonder-loads will do. It's interesting to compare his tests which are every bit as "standardized" as the gel tests on Lucky Gunner, to get a better picture of how any load MIGHT perform. He doesn't just SAY the 38 LSWC is a good load, he takes you through the process so YOU can decide if YOU believe the data presented.

I always enjoy Paul Harrell's videos.

Really sad about that South Carolina Trooper. Almost makes me inclined to load 158 or even 180 gr SJHP .357 Magnums instead of the proven 125 gr in case I run into some inbred fatass that stumbles out of the falling down meth trailerpark (of which there are many in this country) and tries to kill me. But anyway, that was awful hearing and seeing that policeman die like that. Almost as horrible as hearing that cop scream as this crazy piece trash with an M1 Carbine chased him down around his patrol car. What is Fat Bubba still doing alive and occupying good space and breathing valuable oxygen?

 

[Hapworth]

Just here to give a big thanks to BB57 for bringing actual facts, knowledge and information to the general darkness that is your average shooter's understanding of the FBI protocols; should be required reading for this subforum...

 

[Sistema1927]

Just use what ya like... Isnt that the point...

No. While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, nobody is entitled to their own truth.

It doesn't matter what you "like", what is important is what works. Unfortunately, there is more smoke and mirrors with regards to ammunition performance than real hard data.

 

[Old cop]

I have been using the above said load in Remington for the past 14 years in both my 4 inch and snub nose .38 revolvers in both Colt and S&W.

The legendary and proven 158 gr LSWCHP in .38 Spl+P or “FBI Load” as it’s often called for short.

Remington seems to not be producing or selling their version of this roubd for the time being so I just transitioned over to Federal’s version. Winchester’s is avalilable too but they are a little too proud and pricey (like $1.00 a round). Buffalo Bore version I keep as a reserve backup reload just in case but not something I prefer to keep loaded as a primary carry for reasons that ade another discussion for another time (btw, Buffalo Bore DOES perform as advertised)

Anyway, I have noticed over the past few years discussions and videos concerning the above said round demonstrating that it “won’t expand out of 2 inch barrels”. These discussions and demonstrations revolve around it’s performance in a block of gelatin (with sometimes some old blue jeans or a few water jugs thrown in)


But is that really a fair or accurate appraisal? 1) genations of real world shootings on live human bodies with flesh, bone, water, tissue, blood, etc. show the FBI Load to expand exceptionally well out of both 2 and 4 inch revolvers. 2) some of these same gelatin tests also “show” other field proven rounds like the 9BPLE 115 gr +p+ JHP or .357 Magnum 125 gr SJHP as having poor penetration and/or weak expansion (which is certainly not the case in real life shootings). Then the experts will jump to their favorite latest greatest round with some star sword or vicious animal or zombi killer name.

Based on all this, would it be accurate to say that gelatin, while useful, is overused and over relied on? And field reports on real world shootings going way back under appreciated?

I used the FBI +P HP in my 4” Model 15 at close range (arm’s length +) and three rounds dropped the suspect in his tracks.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I used the FBI +P HP in my 4” Model 15 at close range (arm’s length +) and three rounds dropped the suspect in his tracks.

I would think 3 rounds of SWC without the HP would do the same.