Keith Bullets - seated

[38SPL HV]

Pictures below show three Keith type bullets seated (unloaded dummy rounds):

Top: Lyman 358429 170 gr coated (T&B Bullets) 1.565” OAL
Left bottom: Rim Rock 170 gr Keith 1.553” OAL
Right bottom: Matt’s Bullets (NOE moulds) 178 gr 1.553” OAL

Comments:
1. Lyman 358429 OAL per Lyman 1973 cast bullet manual
2. Both Rim Rock and Matt Bullets cannot be crimped over first driver band edge without reducing OAL below current Lyman recommended 1.553” OAL - crimping both the Rim Rick and Matt Bullets Keith’s over the first driver band edge will decrease OAL to 1.520”
3. 1/2 turn of Lee FCD is used and does not decrease OAL

 

[Nevada Ed]

Being a lead bullet, the two loads on the bottom are about the shortest OAL that
I would use for a FULL Load in my .357 Magnum, for plenty of grip
to prevent any bullet set back...........
if the crimp was just on the bullets cylinder (wall) and not in the cannelure.

A few loads down range will let you know if the crimp and power range, needs work.

Have fun.

 

[fredj338]

I have never been concerned about oal in tevolver rds. Just crimp to the crimp groove.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I agree, with cast bullets you should crimp into the manufacturer's supplied crimp groove.

The OAL in the Lyman manual is not listing the recommended OAL, it is only reporting the OAL they had when loading that bullet in the brass they used and they trimmed.

 

[38SPL HV]

I have never been concerned about oal in tevolver rds. Just crimp to the crimp groove.

If I crimp in the crimp groove, they will not fit in my SP101 357 Magnum. They fit my Ruger Blackhawk. I just load to Lyman’s test OAL which is the Keith loaded “short” and they can be used in either firearm.

 

[WR Moore]

OK, back in day when the .357 Magnum was the new kid on the block. the cylinder of the model 27 and later 28 was too short to take the Kieth 173 gr bullet designed for the .38 Spl when seated on the original crimp groove in the .357 case. IIRC, the bullet was later redesigned to have 2 crimping grooves so one could crimp in which ever groove was necessary to allow the loaded round to fit in the cylinder. [The bullet had a long nose to add weight without taking up case volume in the .38 Spl case. This allowed for higher velocities than would otherwise have been possible at acceptable pressures.]

Until the bullet was redesigned, it was common practice to seat the bullet deeper and crimp over the front edge of the driving band. This is really no big deal SO LONG AS LOADS ARE REDUCED TO REFLECT THE REDUCED CASE VOLUME.

As someone noted, the listed OAL in most revolver load data reflects what the publisher used and the velocities/pressure/charge weight for the given configuration. My 1960's era Lyman manual only lists a maximum OAL for .357. No OALs were listed for any specific bullet. One sort of assumes the OAL reflects use of whatever crimping groove was on the specific bullet.

Dunno about the Ruger, but the S&W J frame .357s were developed around the 125 gr JHP load. Heavier bullets may stick out the front of the cylinder. Unless seated deeper than usual with the above qualifier about reducing powder charges. If you're using the Lyman data, they usually specify exactly which bullet they're using. If Lyman specified an acceptable OAL, the load data should be acceptable at that length.

 

[4barrel]

I ran into that with 200 grain boolits. I roll crimped over the drive band and backed off on the powder charge with good results. They will fit k-l-and n frame guns. My 200s are crimped like your top black boolit. In my test the heavy boolits liked the slower pistol powders like 2400 and 4227 using a middle of the road charge.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Just a note on using todays coated or non-canneure bullets in any revolver.

With the very large bullets with a very long length and if used with powders like
IMR2400 or 4227 or any other case filling powder that is near a maximum load
and usually very close if not a compressed load............

IF the crimp is in front of the "Can" , I doubt that the bullet will move back into the case much, do to it resting on the powder.
However it is something to think about.

One reason I like 4227 as a beginners loading powder for the .357 Magnum.
It is like 4831 in rifle loads........ scoop it and go.

 

[mikld]

Since 1969 I have seated all revolver bullets to the crimp groove or cannalure and disregarded book OAL. I have had zero problems in 5 different calibers in 8 different revolvers. I always figgered the bullet designers knew where to place the groove/cannalure...

 

[4barrel]

An N frame 357 has a shorter cylinder than a K or L frame is the reason some bullets have to be seated deeper like post #6 describes. You run into this on longer heavier bullets.

 

[Rule3]

I never understood the "desire" to load a heavy bullet that requires seating it over the "edge"??
For the little gain in bullet weight you, lose some velocity so it is pretty much a wash

 

[4barrel]

To me it's just something to play with. Sometimes you find a good load. I have a good time doing it.

 

[cowboy4evr]

The cast bullet design a swc with 2 crimp grooves is the Ray Thompson design . It's the Lyman 358146 . It was a gas checked design . The Lyman 358429 (Keith designed swc ) was never gas checked nor had 2 crimp grooves . It was later offered also as a hollow point nose or with a hollow base . The reason for the 2 crimp grooves was to maximize use of 38 spl cases giving about the same case capacity as a 357 case when the bullet was crimped in the lower crimp groove . That particular combination was a real favorite of noted gun mag writer , Skeeter (Charles ) Skelton . The article , " My Friend , The 357 -- Dark Canyon , speaks of his fondness for that combination and included load data . It's an article worth reading . Regards Paul

 

[dhom]

Pictures below show three Keith type bullets seated (unloaded dummy rounds):

Top: Lyman 358429 170 gr coated (T&B Bullets) 1.565” OAL
Left bottom: Rim Rock 170 gr Keith 1.553” OAL
Right bottom: Matt’s Bullets (NOE moulds) 178 gr 1.553” OAL

Comments:
1. Lyman 358429 OAL per Lyman 1973 cast bullet manual
2. Both Rim Rock and Matt Bullets cannot be crimped over first driver band edge without reducing OAL below current Lyman recommended 1.553” OAL - crimping both the Rim Rick and Matt Bullets Keith’s over the first driver band edge will decrease OAL to 1.520”
3. 1/2 turn of Lee FCD is used and does not decrease OAL

When I crimp short or over the front driving band I end up shorter than OAL 1.553". If you use a strong crimp, you may have problems with the cylinder being so tight you cannot load the bullets. [I am talking about when you crimp on the front driving band to get that OAL] The crimp adds a bulge you may not be able to get fully loaded in the cylinder. I believe that the OAL in a 38 Special case with 358429 is 1.537". I crimp over the front band as long as I can get at least that lenght. [cast bullets do vary] You might want to reduce your charge if you are already at top end. When I used the same charge with both lenghts [1.640" and 1.553"] the short loading gave a 100 fps velocity increase and maintained the same accuracy.

 

[SuperMan]

cowboy..you have it all right except the number which you may have typed wrong..358156...

Bob

 

[StrawHat]

...That particular combination was a real favorite of noted gun mag writer , Skeeter (Charles ) Skelton . The article , " My Friend , The 357 -- Dark Canyon , speaks of his fondness for that combination and included load data . It's an article worth reading . Regards Paul...

Paul,

Great article about a great recipe. I still load the Thompson bullet out in 38 Special cases and use them in the 38/44 Heavy Duty. Shoots to the sights and as accurate as my old wadcutter loads. I also used that load in PPC competition for the Distinguished and the Duty leg.

Kevin

 

[cowboy4evr]

Thanks Bob (Superman) for the correction , I appreciate ya . Regards Paul

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

If I crimp in the crimp groove, they will not fit in my SP101 357 Magnum. They fit my Ruger Blackhawk. I just load to Lyman’s test OAL which is the Keith loaded “short” and they can be used in either firearm.

Me too......No Big Deal.

 

[38SPL HV]

Since 1969 I have seated all revolver bullets to the crimp groove or cannalure and disregarded book OAL. I have had zero problems in 5 different calibers in 8 different revolvers. I always figgered the bullet designers knew where to place the groove/cannalure...

You’re ok unless you have older N frames or in my case a Ruger SP101 which have cylinders too short to accommodate the 358429 crimped in its crimp groove...I load them short to 1.553” OAL so my loads with the 358429 will fit in the shorter SP101 cylinder.

 

[smoothshooter]

Pictures below show three Keith type bullets seated (unloaded dummy rounds):

Top: Lyman 358429 170 gr coated (T&B Bullets) 1.565” OAL
Left bottom: Rim Rock 170 gr Keith 1.553” OAL
Right bottom: Matt’s Bullets (NOE moulds) 178 gr 1.553” OAL

Comments:
1. Lyman 358429 OAL per Lyman 1973 cast bullet manual
2. Both Rim Rock and Matt Bullets cannot be crimped over first driver band edge without reducing OAL below current Lyman recommended 1.553” OAL - crimping both the Rim Rick and Matt Bullets Keith’s over the first driver band edge will decrease OAL to 1.520”
3. 1/2 turn of Lee FCD is used and does not decreOAL

Not sure why OAL matters in a revolver as long as the cylinder will still turn.