LVSteve
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DP51. It worked just fine, but too many in the US have ingrained habits/expectations so it didn't sell well.
Handguns from the 80's/90's that didn't make it.
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DP51. It worked just fine, but too many in the US have ingrained habits/expectations so it didn't sell well.
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Be sure and bump this again in 2025.
I thought the same thing...
It's not unusual to see a five-year old post come back to life.
It is , however, unusual when the OP is the "bumper!"
Social distancing ......... keep your threads..... "5 years" apart........
I'll add the 3" 66 -2 though -4....... only about 5000 made over that decade
I got two -3s in about 1988/89 that had set on a distributors shelf for about a year for about $270 with the actions polished.......
I remember those years as "If it didn't have at least 15 rounds up it's butt no one wanted it!" having/carrying a 6 shot revolver would just get you killed..... just watch Lethal Weapon or Die Hard!!!!!!
Someone earlier...2015..... mentioned the Beretta 92 Compact Type-M single stack....... I picked up one in 1993 from a local Police Supply Co. just before the AWB as an "insurance policy"...... bought a second from them 10 years later..... both were 'extras' from the same batch bought to fill a Police Dept order in 1992 ..... the Single Stack Ms (8+1) were for Lt's and above.
Truth is I kind or like them for EDC when I don't need a double stack....the M was around for a good while just never a big seller in the US. Kind of the Italian equivalent of the German single stack police ( Walther P-5, Sig P-6 and H&K P-7) guns.
I'll add the 3" 66 -2 though -4....... only about 5000 made over that decade
I got two -3s in about 1988/89 that had set on a distributors shelf for about a year for about $270 with the actions polished.......
I remember those years as "If it didn't have at least 15 rounds up it's butt no one wanted it!" having/carrying a 6 shot revolver would just get you killed..... just watch Lethal Weapon or Die Hard!!!!!!
Someone earlier...2015..... mentioned the Beretta 92 Compact Type-M single stack....... I picked up one in 1993 from a local Police Supply Co. just before the AWB as an "insurance policy"...... bought a second from them 10 years later..... both were 'extras' from the same batch bought to fill a Police Dept order in 1992 ..... the Single Stack Ms (8+1) were for Lt's and above.
Truth is I kind or like them for EDC when I don't need a double stack....the M was around for a good while just never a big seller in the US. Kind of the Italian equivalent of the German single stack police ( Walther P-5, Sig P-6 and H&K P-7) guns.
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Five year old thread, but I'll bite. Here's a Browning BDM, made from 1991-98. Made for FBI trials. A unique gun in that it has a switch that allows it be fired in "revolver" mode (double action only) or like a DA/SA semi-auto. It is the slimmest double stack (15 rounds) I have ever encountered. It's a really cool gun and a nice shooter. All steel. Made in the USA. It is definitely NOT a double action Hi Power.
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The FN HP-DA/ Browning BDA and the Browning BDM, were attempts to create a successor to the Hi Power and neither lasted long.
The FN HP-DA (middle in the picture below) was designed for the M9 service trials in 1983 and obviously lost. It was sold commercially in the standard form as well as in compact and double action only form with a couple stops and starts from 1984 to 1999. It was sold as the Browning BDA in the US and as the FN HP-DA in Europe.
It lacked the feel and refinement of the Hi Power and had a few other design choices that probably didn't help it much such as not sharing the same magazine as the Hi Power.
The Browning BDM (top in the picture above) was designed for the FBI service pistol trials in 1991 and had a couple of features that were unique.
First, it used a mode switch that allowed it to operate in "revolver" mode as a double action only semi-auto pistol, or in a double action/single action decocker equipped semi-auto pistol mode. There was some benefit in terms of easing the transition of revolver carrying officers to a semi-auto pistol.
Second, it had a very thin grip for a double stack 9mm pistol (on the left below), in fact I've never encountered one that was thinner, and that would have had some benefit for concealed carry by agents. However, it also made the pistol feel funny in the hand, so subjectively it was a failure, and on that was noticeable as soon as a potential customer picked it up. Browning also made the BRM, a version without the selector switch that operated in DAO/Revolver mode all the time.
One major flaw is that when operated in SA/DA pistol mode the safety operated backwards - "up" is the fire position. That was the kiss of death for the design in my opinion.
Neither was a success and they were discontinued in 1998.
FN also made the SFS version of the Hi Power (the bottom pistol in the first picture). The SFS stood for "Safety Fast Shooting" and it was an outgrowth of FNs attempt to submit a pistol for the initial XM9 pistol trials. It was rejected as it was not a double action pistol, although it achieved the intended goals, with some advantages.
The design uses a two part hammer where the upper part cocks the lower part, and then is pressed forward to place the pistol on safe. Pressing the hammer forward pops the safety up into the "safe" position, and conversely pressing the safety lever down pops the hammer back into position to fire.
The end result was that the pistol could be carried in condition 1 with the hammer down on a hammer block, so it was drop safe and less scary looking to civilians who would otherwise be nervous seeing someone carrying a pistol with the hammer cocked. I like it for concealed carry as the hammer is down and won't rub on you or print on your shirt, and it's easy to verify the pistol is on safe. And, if you hold your thumb over the back of the hammer when holstering it, you are assured that it will always be on safe when holstering it.
It also wasn't a marketing success, and I got my SFS Hi Power on closeout at about half the price of the regular epoxy finished Hi Power. You can however get the original FN SFS parts as a conversion kit for a Hi Power from Cylinder and Slide. It'll work on any Hi Power and I converted one of my first gen FEG P9 pistols to SFS operation with only minor re-fitting of the SFS slide stop required.
The FN HP-DA (middle in the picture below) was designed for the M9 service trials in 1983 and obviously lost. It was sold commercially in the standard form as well as in compact and double action only form with a couple stops and starts from 1984 to 1999. It was sold as the Browning BDA in the US and as the FN HP-DA in Europe.
It lacked the feel and refinement of the Hi Power and had a few other design choices that probably didn't help it much such as not sharing the same magazine as the Hi Power.
The Browning BDM (top in the picture above) was designed for the FBI service pistol trials in 1991 and had a couple of features that were unique.
First, it used a mode switch that allowed it to operate in "revolver" mode as a double action only semi-auto pistol, or in a double action/single action decocker equipped semi-auto pistol mode. There was some benefit in terms of easing the transition of revolver carrying officers to a semi-auto pistol.
Second, it had a very thin grip for a double stack 9mm pistol (on the left below), in fact I've never encountered one that was thinner, and that would have had some benefit for concealed carry by agents. However, it also made the pistol feel funny in the hand, so subjectively it was a failure, and on that was noticeable as soon as a potential customer picked it up. Browning also made the BRM, a version without the selector switch that operated in DAO/Revolver mode all the time.
One major flaw is that when operated in SA/DA pistol mode the safety operated backwards - "up" is the fire position. That was the kiss of death for the design in my opinion.
Neither was a success and they were discontinued in 1998.
FN also made the SFS version of the Hi Power (the bottom pistol in the first picture). The SFS stood for "Safety Fast Shooting" and it was an outgrowth of FNs attempt to submit a pistol for the initial XM9 pistol trials. It was rejected as it was not a double action pistol, although it achieved the intended goals, with some advantages.
The design uses a two part hammer where the upper part cocks the lower part, and then is pressed forward to place the pistol on safe. Pressing the hammer forward pops the safety up into the "safe" position, and conversely pressing the safety lever down pops the hammer back into position to fire.
The end result was that the pistol could be carried in condition 1 with the hammer down on a hammer block, so it was drop safe and less scary looking to civilians who would otherwise be nervous seeing someone carrying a pistol with the hammer cocked. I like it for concealed carry as the hammer is down and won't rub on you or print on your shirt, and it's easy to verify the pistol is on safe. And, if you hold your thumb over the back of the hammer when holstering it, you are assured that it will always be on safe when holstering it.
It also wasn't a marketing success, and I got my SFS Hi Power on closeout at about half the price of the regular epoxy finished Hi Power. You can however get the original FN SFS parts as a conversion kit for a Hi Power from Cylinder and Slide. It'll work on any Hi Power and I converted one of my first gen FEG P9 pistols to SFS operation with only minor re-fitting of the SFS slide stop required.
I don't have personal experience with failed guns from that era, but looking over many of the examples shown I call to mind two quotes from Elon Musk.
"Complexity is the devil"
"The biggest sin of engineers is optimizing something that doesn't need to exist"
"Complexity is the devil"
"The biggest sin of engineers is optimizing something that doesn't need to exist"
Buick
Member
I liked the FN Hi Power with the fast action hammer.
Upon chambering a round, one placed the gun on safe and pushed the hammer down with the thumb.
When ready to fire, releasingthe safety caused the hammer to jump back to full cock. Seemed to work well, even if it was a solution in search of a problem.
Upon chambering a round, one placed the gun on safe and pushed the hammer down with the thumb.
When ready to fire, releasingthe safety caused the hammer to jump back to full cock. Seemed to work well, even if it was a solution in search of a problem.
A portion of quote by BB57 Above.First, it used a mode switch that allowed it to operate in "revolver" mode as a double action only semi-auto pistol, or in a double action/single action decocker equipped semi-auto pistol mode. There was some benefit in terms of easing the transition of revolver carrying officers to a semi-auto pistol.
Second, it had a very thin grip for a double stack 9mm pistol (on the left below), in fact I've never encountered one that was thinner, and that would have had some benefit for concealed carry by agents. However, it also made the pistol feel funny in the hand, so subjectively it was a failure, and on that was noticeable as soon as a potential customer picked it up. Browning also made the BRM, a version without the selector switch that operated in DAO/Revolver mode all the time.
One major flaw is that when operated in SA/DA pistol mode the safety operated backwards - "up" is the fire position. That was the kiss of death for the design in my opinion.
If you had experience with a number of European pistols, then the "backwards safety for Yanks" was the common method on Walthers. I have no problem with safeties that work either way, just a matter of experience and choice. My two BDMs have one modification that certainly improved them, a steel rather than plastic guide rod. These were available quite a few years ago but the chap who made them died about 10 years ago. Dave_n
Second, it had a very thin grip for a double stack 9mm pistol (on the left below), in fact I've never encountered one that was thinner, and that would have had some benefit for concealed carry by agents. However, it also made the pistol feel funny in the hand, so subjectively it was a failure, and on that was noticeable as soon as a potential customer picked it up. Browning also made the BRM, a version without the selector switch that operated in DAO/Revolver mode all the time.
One major flaw is that when operated in SA/DA pistol mode the safety operated backwards - "up" is the fire position. That was the kiss of death for the design in my opinion.
If you had experience with a number of European pistols, then the "backwards safety for Yanks" was the common method on Walthers. I have no problem with safeties that work either way, just a matter of experience and choice. My two BDMs have one modification that certainly improved them, a steel rather than plastic guide rod. These were available quite a few years ago but the chap who made them died about 10 years ago. Dave_n
I had one of the Semmerling LM4 pistols 45acp mentioned by Kaaskop in the orig thread.
Looked like a small semiauto but was manually operated by pushing the slide forward.
It came to me in pieces. The orig owner, a DR, had it stolen from his office at a local hospital in the mid 70's.
The pistol was recovered nearly 20yrs later in a drug house raid. The pistol found in trunk of a car on the property. It had been subjected to water soaking for who knows how long,,and it was in parts in a cardboard box.
Drug House Gunsmithing,,who'd a thought...
The owner got the pistol back. The stainless steel construction held up pretty well. A couple small parts were missing, plus the grips and screws.
He asked me if I wanted it and we worked out a trade for a shooter Luger.
I got the pistol all back together. It cleaned up beautifully.
The Dr came up with the orig paperwork for the pistol and another set of grips for it.
I made the couple of parts needed, one a simple small side plate.
One magazine was in with the parts when found,,the good Dr supplied another.
Off to the range with FMJ ammo.
I have to say the heavy little thing functioned as advertised.,,and very smoothly too.
Very easy to chamber rounds and then to eject them after firing.
The action is DA only and the trigger pull is very smooth.
We had no problem keeping shots on a 50yrd Bullseye target 'paper' at 25yds.
Not exactly what the gun was meant for, but we just had to see anyway.
Heavy enough to need a belt holster IMO. I know they adv these as a deep undercover type pistol. Not my area of expertise, but it seems like it'd be a bit hard to carry that way (ankle holsters, ect.)
The slide forward manual action worked wonderfully as I said, but I often though about how someone might lapse into forgetting that type of non-familiar mode if in a do or die situation.
Novelty has it's place but I wouldn't think that was one of them.
I kept the LM4 for a number of years. Then sold it to a collector looking for one to fill a collection. He was happy and I was too.
It wasn't really in my realm of gun accumulation types, but it was an interesting enough mechanism to see it through and bring it back to life.
Looked like a small semiauto but was manually operated by pushing the slide forward.
It came to me in pieces. The orig owner, a DR, had it stolen from his office at a local hospital in the mid 70's.
The pistol was recovered nearly 20yrs later in a drug house raid. The pistol found in trunk of a car on the property. It had been subjected to water soaking for who knows how long,,and it was in parts in a cardboard box.
Drug House Gunsmithing,,who'd a thought...
The owner got the pistol back. The stainless steel construction held up pretty well. A couple small parts were missing, plus the grips and screws.
He asked me if I wanted it and we worked out a trade for a shooter Luger.
I got the pistol all back together. It cleaned up beautifully.
The Dr came up with the orig paperwork for the pistol and another set of grips for it.
I made the couple of parts needed, one a simple small side plate.
One magazine was in with the parts when found,,the good Dr supplied another.
Off to the range with FMJ ammo.
I have to say the heavy little thing functioned as advertised.,,and very smoothly too.
Very easy to chamber rounds and then to eject them after firing.
The action is DA only and the trigger pull is very smooth.
We had no problem keeping shots on a 50yrd Bullseye target 'paper' at 25yds.
Not exactly what the gun was meant for, but we just had to see anyway.
Heavy enough to need a belt holster IMO. I know they adv these as a deep undercover type pistol. Not my area of expertise, but it seems like it'd be a bit hard to carry that way (ankle holsters, ect.)
The slide forward manual action worked wonderfully as I said, but I often though about how someone might lapse into forgetting that type of non-familiar mode if in a do or die situation.
Novelty has it's place but I wouldn't think that was one of them.
I kept the LM4 for a number of years. Then sold it to a collector looking for one to fill a collection. He was happy and I was too.
It wasn't really in my realm of gun accumulation types, but it was an interesting enough mechanism to see it through and bring it back to life.
I had a guy recently make me a stainless steel guide rod for my BDM. I hated the plastic one.
Colt 2000 is the first thing that came to mind for me.
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A friend carried one of those as his BUG. But he was, as my grandmother used to say "big enough to go bear hunting with a switch".
Neversink n Klapperthal
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remember Leroy Thompson and his Detonics guns?
Chubbs103
US Veteran
I may be crazy, but the gun magazines used to run an add in the 80s for a pistol that held a "baker's dozen" of 9mm. I remember the adds for the CAC 45 and I think they came from the same folks.
I have exhausted the interweb and cannot find any reference to this mystery 9mm.
Engine49guy
Member
Reminded me there is one of each in the safe along with an Iver Johnson .22lr PPK clone in nickel...
I hang on to mine mainly because of the 15 rnd mags in CA. It's not that bad a gun I don't think. Been a safe queen like most of my guns anyway.
Like Colt says don't oil the rollers on the trigger. Tell you friend to blast the rollers with a cleaner and then lube with a dry Teflon. Makes the trigger pretty decent for the gun's intended purpose.
Patrick L
Member
AMT Hardballer. Had a longslide version too, famous from the original "Terminator" movie.
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