Good-bye HK: The (probable) new German Army rifle

[Absalom]

A news item which I thought might interest some folks here:

After several years of controversy over supposed weaknesses of the current HK G-36 standard rifle, the German Defense Ministry today (yesterday) announced the winner of the new contract:

C.G. Haenel of Suhl with their MK552. The semi-auto version CR223 is already in service with some German police units.

HK competed with their HK 416. Of course they've already announced they'll go to court over supposed issues with the selection.

 

[sheppard]

Is this similar to the AR15/ M-16 in construction and functioning?

 

[Andyd]

Is this similar to the AR15/ M-16 in construction and functioning?

CR 223 | C.G. Haenel GmbH

 

[P.44]

Here is some more info
250 million euro deal: new assault rifle of the German Armed Forces and successor to the G36 to be supplied by C.G. Haenel – All info and background. | all4shooters

and a "test" from the civil (=semi-auto) rifle
Test: Haenel CR-223 semi-automatic competition rifle | all4shooters

P.44
Perhaps also interesting (Sorry, only in German language)
Haenel gegen Heckler & Koch: Bundeswehrauftrag f"ur Haenel aus Th"uringen - DER SPIEGEL

 

[murphydog]

Is this similar to the AR15/ M-16 in construction and functioning?

Sure appears to be.

 

[4WHLDRFTN]

Eugene Stoner

 

[cmansguns]

wartime CG Haenel manufacture

Sorry for a little thread drift, but once had a 41 byf (Mauser) Luger that was a "bring back" in prima condition, all matching #'s.

The collectors in those days called my Luger a "Black Widow" because of its black plastic grips (type 6 for you Luger collectors) and the black plastic magazine base. The magazine was unnumbered, and proofed fxo with Eagle 37 which denoted early war manufacture by CG Haenel, Waffen.u.Fahrradfabrik, Suhl, Germany.

So......still around after pushing 80 years, maybe (probably) rebuilt factory with all modern equipment right after the war, thanks to US $.

 

[REM 3200]

Sorry for a little thread drift, but once had a 41 byf (Mauser) Luger that was a "bring back" in prima condition, all matching #'s.

The collectors in those days called my Luger a "Black Widow" because of its black plastic grips (type 6 for you Luger collectors) and the black plastic magazine base. The magazine was unnumbered, and proofed fxo with Eagle 37 which denoted early war manufacture by CG Haenel, Waffen.u.Fahrradfabrik, Suhl, Germany.

So......still around after pushing 80 years, maybe (probably) rebuilt factory with all modern equipment right after the war, thanks to US $.

CG Haenel, Waffen.u.Fahrradfabrik, Suhl, Germany was in East Germany so no US $ until the wall came down if then.

 

[Absalom]

....
So......still around after pushing 80 years, maybe (probably) rebuilt factory with all modern equipment right after the war, thanks to US $.

The old pre-1945 Haenel factory in Suhl actually became part of the "Ernst Thälmann" complex of state-owned East German gun works, best known here for manufacturing the East German Makarov version.

 

[LVSteve]

Is this similar to the AR15/ M-16 in construction and functioning?

It's a short-stroke piston gun rather than the Stoner gas system.

 

[murphydog]

It's a short-stroke piston gun rather than the Stoner gas system.

Thanks for the information. Fluent in German?

 

[Art Doc]

Wow. Modern military rifles are just as ugly as most modern handguns.

 

[Echo40]

On good, another boring AR-15 style rifle to replace an otherwise perfectly functional rifle which only has issues that manifest under extreme conditions which have never once occurred in the field during its entire life in military service.

Truly the best replacement made by any military since the U.S. Military decided to replace the Beretta M9 with the SIG M17.

Honestly though, why? Why do military forces across the globe waste money by replacing firearms which have served them well for decades, that their personel is already familiar with, and it would be much cheaper to just stick with the same platform and request any changes/upgrades are deemed necessary, especially when the new weapon they choose isn't really much of a tangible upgrade to the last to begin with?

 

[Scharfschuetzer]

I wondered if it would use a conventional gas piston. Good idea to drop the direct impingement (Lgungmen-Stoner) gas operation for a more conventional gas piston. While the direct impingement system is very reliable, dumping gas directly into the action results in a lot of cleaning and eventual carbon build up.

At one point in the early 2,000s my unit was to convert our M4A1 uppers to a gas piston design, but numerous post 9-11 hits to the budget cancelled that conversion.

Regarding the G36, I once trained and shot with a Spanish Army team who liked their G36 weapons.

 

[LVSteve]

Thanks for the information. Fluent in German?

Nope, one of the links in another thread had the info in English.

 

[LVSteve]

I wondered if it would use a conventional gas piston. Good idea to drop the direct impingement (Lgungmen-Stoner) gas operation for a more conventional gas piston. While the direct impingement system is very reliable, dumping gas directly into the action results in a lot of cleaning and eventual carbon build up.

At one point in the early 2,000s my unit was to convert our M4A1 uppers to a gas piston design, but numerous post 9-11 hits to the budget cancelled that conversion.

Regarding the G36, I once trained and shot with a Spanish Army team who liked their G36 weapons.

I'll take Ljungman/MAS 49 style of direct impingement over Stoner's interpretation any day in a 5.56 weapon. Stoner's system is clever in that it keeps the forces in line with the bore, but in downsizing it from the AR-10 to 5.56 NATO the components got smaller while the crud that jams up guns stayed the same size.

The Ljungman/MAS 49 system only dumps gas into a recess in the bolt carrier instead of mixing it around the bolt/carrier interfaces like Stoner.

 

[LVSteve]

On good, another boring AR-15 style rifle to replace an otherwise perfectly functional rifle which only has issues that manifest under extreme conditions which have never once occurred in the field during its entire life in military service.

Truly the best replacement made by any military since the U.S. Military decided to replace the Beretta M9 with the SIG M17.

Honestly though, why? Why do military forces across the globe waste money by replacing firearms which have served them well for decades, that their personel is already familiar with, and it would be much cheaper to just stick with the same platform and request any changes/upgrades are deemed necessary, especially when the new weapon they choose isn't really much of a tangible upgrade to the last to begin with?

I asked somebody I know who has connections in the Bunderwehr about the G36 issues. He reckoned that the G36 had been known to be a dog for some time, but much like our own procurement process, getting some of those in charge to admit they bought a pup can be difficult. There was also strong resistance to buying a "quick fix" replacement like (shudder) the M4. Not designed by a German? Made largely by a Belgian company (FN)? Nope, that wasn't happening.

No doubt H&K will appeal the decision, and reading the specs of the different weapons, Haenel MK 556, HK 416 and HK 433, you have to wonder what the deciding factor might be.

 

[Sistema1927]

Keymod? I would have thought that M-Lok would have been a better choice these days.

 

[REM 3200]

On good, another boring AR-15 style rifle to replace an otherwise perfectly functional rifle which only has issues that manifest under extreme conditions which have never once occurred in the field during its entire life in military service.

Truly the best replacement made by any military since the U.S. Military decided to replace the Beretta M9 with the SIG M17.

Honestly though, why? Why do military forces across the globe waste money by replacing firearms which have served them well for decades, that their personel is already familiar with, and it would be much cheaper to just stick with the same platform and request any changes/upgrades are deemed necessary, especially when the new weapon they choose isn't really much of a tangible upgrade to the last to begin with?

With that thinking the U S military would still be using flintlocks, after all, we whipped the British with them.

 

[white cloud]

On good, another boring AR-15 style rifle to replace an otherwise perfectly functional rifle which only has issues that manifest under extreme conditions which have never once occurred in the field during its entire life in military service.

Truly the best replacement made by any military since the U.S. Military decided to replace the Beretta M9 with the SIG M17.

Honestly though, why? Why do military forces across the globe waste money by replacing firearms which have served them well for decades, that their personel is already familiar with, and it would be much cheaper to just stick with the same platform and request any changes/upgrades are deemed necessary, especially when the new weapon they choose isn't really much of a tangible upgrade to the last to begin with?

Your post says it all for me. Yet they continue on. Russia is getting the AK-12 which looks like an AK-74 with improved furniture. The Marines are getting the HK. None of these rifles seem like a dramatic step forward to me. People keep complaining about how terrible .22 caliber service rounds are but armies keep issuing them. I guess these changes give the sense of progress.

I read that the U.S. Army is working on plastic cased ammo in a larger caliber. I hope they don't screw this up and get American soldiers killed over it.