Hollow Point vs. Round-Nose Ammo

[ContinentalOp]

That's something I've never understood when people say a 9mm is as effective as a 40 S&W.

Heard many say that the 9mm defense ammo is better.

The argument is based on actual shootings. Data I've seen shows no significant difference in effectiveness between the service calibers.

And when people say 9mm is better, I believe they're comparing current 9mm JHP, which balances expansion with good penetration, to older generations of 9mm JHP, which either expanded too much, limiting penetration, or didn't expand at all and penetrated too much.

While all calibers have benefited from modern technology, 9mm has benefited more than the others, which is why their performance is similar.

Another possible reason why people say 9mm is better is that, given the equivalent performance among all the calibers, 9mm is going to have less recoil, thus potentially faster follow-up shots, and higher capacity than the larger calibers.

The way I look at it, since their actual street performance is similar, people should pick a good HP in the caliber they prefer. 9mm is better for me, but other people may have different wants/needs.

Just my opinion.

 

[Rpg]

Exactly how does that math work?

Area is proportional to diameter squared. A 9mm is .354 and a 45 is .452 so the 45 has 63% greater diameter. With both calibers a FMJ is probably going to a complete pass through so the length of the would canal is going to be 100% in both cases. So assuming no expansion the 45 wound canal would be 63% larger. A 40 wound canal would be 27% larger. Larger yes, but not 200% larger.

Volume is three dimensional, area is two dimensional, so you’re correct as to two dimensions.

A wound canal is three dimensional.

 

[Rule3]

Some folks really need to watch this video, watch it again and actually listen to what the guys at Federal say.


Why Ballistics Gel Works and Caliber Arguments are Dumb - YouTube


Why Ballistics Gel Works and Caliber Arguments are Dumb - YouTube

 

[JJEH]

Some folks really need to watch this video, watch it again and actually listen to what the guys at Federal say.


Why Ballistics Gel Works and Caliber Arguments are Dumb - YouTube

Interesting video for sure, but there was one argument that I found a little contradictive though. When they talked about rifle ballistics they said the higher velocity was good and basically speed kills but they disregarded velocity it when it came to handgun ballistics.

 

[Dave Lively]

Volume is three dimensional, area is two dimensional, so you’re correct as to two dimensions.

A wound canal is three dimensional.

I got all three dimensions. Surface area is height and width. Penetration is length.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Interesting video for sure, but there was one argument that I found a little contradictive though. When they talked about rifle ballistics they said the higher velocity was good and basically speed kills but they disregarded velocity it when it came to handgun ballistics.

You might need to re-watch it and pay closer attention. They said the reason was because higher velocity wasn't a factor until the bullet gets above 2200fps.

 

[JJEH]

You might need to re-watch it and pay closer attention. They said the reason was because higher velocity wasn't a factor until the bullet gets above 2200fps.

Just did, you are right, thank you.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Volume is three dimensional, area is two dimensional, so you’re correct as to two dimensions.

A wound canal is three dimensional.

I got all three dimensions. Surface area is height and width. Penetration is length.

So, I got curious and decided to do the math. Well, simplifed.

Volume of a cylinder is pi*(r^2)*L.

For a .35 caliber bullet traveling 15", the volume is 1.44in^3.

For a .45 caliber bullet traveling 15", the volume is 2.39in^3.

Someone please correct me if I'm missing something.

 

[Rule3]

Interesting video for sure, but there was one argument that I found a little contradictive though. When they talked about rifle ballistics they said the higher velocity was good and basically speed kills but they disregarded velocity it when it came to handgun ballistics.

You might need to re-watch it and pay closer attention. They said the reason was because higher velocity wasn't a factor until the bullet gets above 2200fps.

Yep that is when hydro static shock happens and the body tissue can not shrink back



Yes, speed does kill. What does more damage a 40 gr 22 lr at 1200 fps or a 40 gr 223 at 3200+ fps?

 

[ContinentalOp]

What does more damage a 40 gr 22 lr at 1200 fps or a 40 gr 223 at 3200+ fps?

 

[Dave Lively]

So, I got curious and decided to do the math. Well, simplifed.

Volume of a cylinder is pi*(r^2)*L.

For a .35 caliber bullet traveling 15", the volume is 1.44in^3.

For a .45 caliber bullet traveling 15", the volume is 2.39in^3.

Someone please correct me if I'm missing something.

Your numbers agree with mine. Maybe not exactly but pretty close. 2.39/1.44 = 1.66 or 66% more volume. A couple of posts up I calculated 63% more. The difference is just rounding errors because I used .452 and .354 for the diameters.

More, but not nearly 3 times the wound volume as the post I was responding to claimed.

 

[seldon14]

Interesting video for sure, but there was one argument that I found a little contradictive though. When they talked about rifle ballistics they said the higher velocity was good and basically speed kills but they disregarded velocity it when it came to handgun ballistics.

The basics, as I understand it, are fast rifle rounds ARE moving fast enough for velocity to matter, but even the fastest handgun rounds are not.

 

[zzclancy]

Count Smith

Some folks really need to watch this video, watch it again and actually listen to what the guys at Federal say.


Why Ballistics Gel Works and Caliber Arguments are Dumb - YouTube


Why Ballistics Gel Works and Caliber Arguments are Dumb - YouTube

Clint Smith said he has never been attacked by Jello.

Personally I don't put a lot of faith in Ballistic Gel.

I also don't put a lot of faith in the FBI Ballistic Tests. There seems to be no consistency. Trying to make one size fit all in weapon and ammo selection.

I just not a fan of JHP's.

I like hardball in my 45's and full hard cast wadcutters in 44 special and 38 special.

 

[AJ]

selection.

I just not a fan of JHP's.

I like hardball in my 45's and full hard cast wadcutters in 44 special and 38 special.

I too, like wadcutters and hardball in .45ACP. It starts out as a.45 inch whole and will only get bigger...........

 

[stansdds]

I too, like wadcutters and hardball in .45ACP. It starts out as a.45 inch whole and will only get bigger...........

There is a good bit of truth there. The 9mm may expand to .45, but the 45 ACP will not shrink to 9mm.

I am a fan of expanding bullets, expansion with proper penetration makes them more effective. Even more important, though, is reliability and shot placement. A 9mm that always expands to 3/4 of an inch, but does not function reliably in your pistol is useless. Same goes for a wonder bullet that misses the intended target.

 

[Murdock]

I can't remember the exact terminology, but terrorists weren't considered "legitimate combatants" based on the Hague Conventions (the US didn't sign it, but for the most part we followed the guidelines on ammo) since they didn't represent a recognized country, if I'm not mistaken.

Close, but not quite accurate. The argument for those units with a counter terror role is/was that terrorists are criminals, not lawful combatants, so not eligible for consideration under the Hague Convention. This information was provided to me by the lawyer assigned to "one of those units that do not exist" mentioned so romantically above.

I'm way out of date with this stuff, so if a decision has been made to general issue HP ammunition along with the new SIG that's news to me, and must be based upon some other, new consideration.

 

[Sistema1927]

Holes bleed. bigger holes bleed more. Lots of bigger holes bleed even more.

The only time that I use FMJ is when I am required by circumstances to carry something smaller than usual. For example, .32 ACP out of a KT P32. Those HPs won't expand, and possibly won't penetrate enough. So, while the FMJ won't expand in that caliber, it will penetrate better.

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
The Fmj was NOT designed to wound!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It was designed to FEED and FUNCTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Many forget this in their search for the "perfect " carry load...
First the round MUST feed and fire....
Then it MUST go where you send it......
Then it Must drive deeply enough to get to the good stuff!![ different summer and winter due to clothing]
After that ,, if it deform , does or does not go through is secondary.
It MUST do the first three or it does nothing.....

 

[geekeye]

i'm pretty sure the correct answer to this question of FMJ vs JHP is buckshot

 

[S&W forever]

Wow there some good interesting points in this thread. FMJ ammo is used on paper targets and other targets. HP are used for SD. First use some of your SD ammo on your carry weapon, about 200 rds. If you have not hang up you are good to go.

Simple