SCOTUS accepts Red Flag case

[Muss Muggins]

Back to the case at hand, it's not dealing with Rhode Island's Red Flag law, since it was never invoked. Police simply lured the victim to a mental evaluation on the promise they would not seize his two handguns. He underwent the evaluation, was deemed no danger to himself or others, returned home, and found that his two handguns had been seized without a search warrant or a Red Flag law court order. This case is about yet another exception to the search warrant requirement, not about a Red Flag law . . .

IBTL . . .

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

So you are saying I will have to wait for my crazy

If he's crazy, they should take him away. There are already procedures for that, probably Constitutional.

The main reason for proposing special procedures regarding guns is to use hoplophobia to allow the Constitution to be ignored.

 

[jag312]

Those red flag laws are easily abused and seem unconstitutional and wrong headed to me.

All it takes is a bitter ex girlfriend lying, and all your guns may be seized and it will cost lots of time, money and aggravation to get them back.

My main objection to Red Flag Laws is that there is no criminal penalty for making false accusations. My son's mother liked to call Internal Affairs with "The Accusation of the Month". All nine IA investigations were total bovine manure.

 

[handejector]

Stick to the topic. Leave the Covid arguments and all other societal problems out of it.

 

[Fastbolt]

From the linked article ...

... in essence the Court is being asked to decide if a “community caretaker” exception to the Fourth Amendment applies in this case.

Not sure how this case is being thought to consider "red flag" laws. Not involved in the case.

This is a straight up 4th amendment case, including the "community caretaker" exemption and the seizure of personal property without a warrant under the specific involved circumstances.

 

[message_board_expert]

The Caniglia case so closely parallels the Heller decision that the plaintiff
is entitled to summary judgement. The Second Amendment elements are clear. The man had guns in his possession, in his home, a constitutionally protected area as confirmed by Heller. The issue would be a matter of stare decisis under the Second.

 

[Muss Muggins]

The Circuit Court of Appeals thought differently, although reluctantly. As always, interested parties are allowed to submit amicus briefs, so, if you’re feelin’ froggy, as the saying goes . . .

The Caniglia case so closely parallels the Heller decision that the plaintiff
is entitled to summary judgement. The Second Amendment elements are clear. The man had guns in his possession, in his home, a constitutionally protected area as confirmed by Heller. The issue would be a matter of stare decisis under the Second.

 

[message_board_expert]

The Circuit Court of Appeals thought differently, although reluctantly. . .

Since Heller, lower courts have formed a pattern of erroneous decisions against plaintiffs in Second Amendment cases which are then subsequently overturned by SCOTUS and invariably favoring plaintiffs and gun rights.

 

[steelslaver]

You may well think your nieghbor is crazy and your neighbor may well think you are. You call the police and report the crazy stuff he has done and they take his guns. Fine. But, what if he calls the police and tells them YOU have done a bunch of crazy stuff. Then they take YOUR guns.

Point is anyone with a telephone can call the police and say some one is crazy or that they have done crazy stuff. Just where IS THE LINE AND MORE IMPORTANT WHO DRAWS IT?????

 

[bushmaster1313]

A link to the papers at the Supreme Court is here:
Link to SCOTUS Docket

Link to Petition asking Scotus to hear the case

Point is anyone with a telephone can call the police and say some one is crazy or that they have done crazy stuff. Just where IS THE LINE AND MORE IMPORTANT WHO DRAWS IT?????

^^^This is the crux of the issue before the Supreme Court

The exact question presented is this:

Whether the “community caretaking” exception
to the Fourth Amendment’s warrant requirement
extends to the home.

 

[bushmaster1313]

Point is anyone with a telephone can call the police and say some one is crazy or that they have done crazy stuff. Just where IS THE LINE AND MORE IMPORTANT WHO DRAWS IT?????

^^^This is the crux of the issue before the Supreme Court

The exact question presented is this:

Whether the “community caretaking” exception
to the Fourth Amendment’s warrant requirement
extends to the home.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

There's a little bit of a side issue other than the community caretaker issue. In interrogations I think it is understood that to get the information that they want the police can lie to someone in custody. But this gentleman was not, literally, in custody. He made a deal with the police. They violated their agreement. After agreeing to NOT take his guns they took them behind his back. I'm a big pro-law enforcement guy as a rule but dirty tricks belong somewhere else, not in a citizen's living room. It's offensive to the very core of the Fourth Amendment. I don't see this as a Second Amendment case.

Moral of the story for you shooters and gun collectors out there is simple. If you're going to misbehave with a firearm (and that silly move he pulled telling his wife to shoot him is certainly misbehaving) don't have ALL of your guns where the police can find them. So, if you have to go to court to get your guns back at least you can still have your defensive tools available.

Clearly, if he only had two, and they were in plain sight, well, as noted, I am a law enforcement fan, but trusting the police to NOT take your guns is like trusting your pooch to not eat your steak that you left on the coffee table. It's a reflex!

 

[Golddollar]

Put "Gary Willis of Ferndale, MD killed when police served Red Flag Order" into Google or Bing and see what turns up.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Put "Gary Willis of Ferndale, MD killed when police served Red Flag Order" into Google or Bing and see what turns up.

I did it. I'm not a big fan of red flag laws but I'm not a big fan or idiots who refuse to comply with police instructions and get themselves killed accordingly. He was irate? Of course he was irate. Still, the police come to your home, even if it's because your 4th ex-wife called them because she saw you with with another woman and she's ticked off, you still cooperate with the police. That's what you do.

Your Fourth Amendment rights, never mind your Second Amendment rights, don't give you the right to be a flaming jerkwad.

And I'll stop right there so I don't violate the order, because I could!

Stick to the topic. Leave the Covid arguments and all other societal problems out of it.

 

[S-W4EVER]

?.. Police simply lured the victim to a mental evaluation on the promise they would not seize his two handguns. He underwent the evaluation, was deemed no danger to himself or others, returned home, and found that his two handguns had been seized without a search warrant or a Red Flag law court order...

I know it happens and it’s not illegal but I always did my best to avoid lying to people. I worked uniform patrol my whole career and I always felt that lying to people will catch up to you, sooner or later. Word gets out and pretty soon you’re not effective as a peace officer.

 

[Miami_JBT]

OH BTW I worked Psych VA and Civilian (RN/NP)Hospitals and have had a court order for 72 hr Observation on several Pts. Red flag laws are like those Used against Trump and others, Un- Constitutional. You can have people sent for Psych eval if they are exhibiting Classic Psych Signs.... a Evil violent person ( Absent of Signs/symptoms) in its-self is NOT a Psych issue, its a Violent evil person self generated.

Donald Trump and Rick Scott championed Red Flag Laws. The Democrats aren't at fault with this one. The GOP is.

Violating the 4th Amendment to to after one's 2nd Amendment is horrible. The biggest gun grabbers in FL are Republican Sheriffs. Polk and Pinellas counties are super aggressive and they're heralded as Republican Superstars. Hell, a good chunk of them enforced have been against minors. The kid posted something nefarious on social media and the Sheriff's Office goes after the parent's guns.

Vermont went so far as to take an uncle's guns away because the kids planned on burglarizing the place. They didn't live there, have keys, had legal access, etc.... they just knew that their uncle had guns. The two kids were caught before they took action since they were ratted out by a friend. The police in Vermont still red flagged the guy.

 

[LostintheOzone]

My main objection to Red Flag Laws is that there is no criminal penalty for making false accusations.

There is in this state and I would suspect other states as well. That still doesn't make ERPO laws constitutional.

It sounds like the police were using the ERPO threat as a way to confiscate weapons. That's double messed up and could be labeled coercion. I wouldn't want to be the police chief that did that after the city has to deal with a law suit.

 

[delcrossv]

So you are saying I will have to wait for my crazy neighbor to take a shot at me before they can take his guns away??

Yep. Absent some other evidence that puts the individual in a prohibited class, that's usually the way it works.

 

[smoothshooter]

So you are saying I will have to wait for my crazy neighbor to take a shot at me before they can take his guns away??

What if someone considers YOU “the crazy neighbor”?

 

[steelslaver]

Some people would view anyone who owns a gun "crazy"

More people would view some one who owns 12 guns "crazy"

Does the label "gun nut" ring a bell.

Aren't "Mall Ninjas" really a bit crazy?

I talk to the deer who come around my yard. Does that make me crazy?

My neighbor feed them apples and complains to me that my deer eats his wife's flowers. Is he crazy?

If some one says "he should be shot" talking about the mayor, should I call the police so his guns are taken away?

The mother of my children thought I descended from Antilla the Hun, when she left shouldn't she have been able to call the police and had my guns taken away?