1911 issue in re "condition" of carry

[ISCS Yoda]

Maybe it's a question, maybe it's an issue, maybe it's a beat up dead horse, but I took this from a different thread:

If you carry it all day everyday, why Condition Two, which is not as safe as Condition 1 that it was designed for?

I maintain that the eminent John Browning did NOT design the 1911 to be carried cocked and locked/condition 1, that it was Col. Jeff Cooper who established that concept and not the gun's inventor/designer.

I'm happy to be proved incorrect but so far everyone SAYS that the 1911 is designed to be carried in Condition 1 but nobody has ever proved that statement to me.

We have had a lot of fun discussions about Army guard duty with unloaded weapons, pay officers sitting at a table with unloaded pistols, and I have seen combat footage where a 1911 was clearly in Condition 3 and the officer carrying it racked it and got it into action - and THAT is how I think John Browning intended for it to be carried.

Some website, some manual from the early 1900s, something must exist that proves or disproves the statement that the 1911 was designed to be carried in Condition 1 - and it cannot be merely a Col. Cooper quote.

Thanks for the fun responses that will follow.

I'll be back tomorrow!!!!

 

[dusty3030]

Took what from another thread?

 

[lihpster]

Someone took it back.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Sorry, I lost the quote and had to go retrieve it.

 

[Oracle]

In my understanding, condition one is round in the chamber, cocked. The only thing left to do is grip the weapon which takes care of the grip safety and disengage the manual safety, the weapon is ready to fire. Condition 2 is the same but the weapon is not cocked.

 

[G-Mac]

I think that a lawyer would have a field day in court if you ever used a pistol in a defensive situation and it came out that you were walking around in public with a cocked pistol.

 

[Ugly Hombre]

American Rifleman | Conditions of Readiness for the 1911 Pistol

Condition one for me if the gun is being carried, in the house usually condition three-

In the early years of the 1911 when some Texas Rangers and other south west lawmen (like the famous coffee pot ventilator Charlie Miller) started to use the 1911 they carried it in condition two in half cock, then cocked the gun and fired it just like the Colt SAA's they were used to. Often they would tie the grip saftey down as well.

I tried that at the range a couple of times just to see how it would work, did not care for it much.

 

[moralem]

Let’s think through the physical act of arming the 1911.....loaded magazine in the gun, then the racking of the slide. That’s it, the gun is ready for use, you either pull the trigger or holster it. Those are the two least steps you can take barring any further user action, so that leaves the gun cocked. Why build in that functionality if that was not the intended use or condition....so one could assert that is how the gun was intended to be used, thus the grip safety to add a dimension of no firing without the user actively gripping the gun....I doubt there were any drop test back then to assure that a cocked gun would not fire by hitting the ground.

One could then argue that any other condition, other than cocked, is an attempt to render the gun safer in a less imminent situation. In that case the designer builds in other secondary options, like the slide safety. That’s it, that’s the design of the gun. You build something for ease of use by the stupidest person. You then don’t say only carry the gun uncocked, or cocked but then put the hammer gently down so you have to add another step to render it ready or don’t carry the gun racked at all.

If one reverse engineers the gun to the basics, the gun was intended to be carried racked, then if needed racked with the safety on, then simply carried unracked. The option of racked with the hammer let down and slide safety off or on is the case of unintended options that the designer may not envisioned simply because things were different then. The gun was designed for use not for carry but make it safe or add in an extra step to render safer than what was intended.....all that to say I believe the gun was to be used as it is rendered once you cock it.....that doesn’t mean that condition transfers to current times. That was then this is now......would I carry a 1911 simply cocked, not in today’s civilian use, but would I have carried it in the cocked and or locked in the great wars heck yeah.

 

[Darkenfast]

The original post brings up a valid point: just because many people on the internet repeat that "John Browning said...", doesn't mean that John Browning actually said it. History is full of these sorts of thing. Someone might say "If Browning were here, he'd say...", and after a few iterations it becomes "Browning said...".

So the question then becomes a case of finding an actual quote in, say, a biography by a real writer or second best, a memoir by a trusted source who heard it from Browning personally.

A third best source might be a manual from 1911. What did the Army have to say about it? That won't necessarily be as good as a Browning quote, but it at least gets us closer to the original source.

Now we just need someone with a good library to enlighten us with facts!

P.S. (and slightly related) I read somewhere on the internet (see what I mean?), that Browning's favorite pistol to actually carry (in his pocket, presumably), was an FN 1910. If this is true, did he carry it with a round in the chamber?

 

[lihpster]

How come no one ever asks how Stoner intended the M-16 to be carried?

 

[alwslate]

Since the 1911 was designed for military use, not civilian carry, it was probably meant to be carried in a flap holster with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. The inertia firing pin makes this a safe way to carry.

 

[dsf]

From 1940. Page 25 may provide some insight - or not -

Original Colt M1911 & M1911A1 Basic Field Manual (FM 23-35) >> Sight M1911

Different conditions for different circumstances.

 

[mikerjf]

Good discussion here:
How did John Browning intend the 1911 to be carried? - Range HotRange Hot

Important points:

The grip safety appeared on the 1907 at the specific request of the US Army. It may have been intended as a drop-safety!

The 1910 did not have a thumb safety. It was added to the 1911 at the specific request of the US Calvary for re-holstering safety, not as a standard carry mode.

The 1911 is the way it is because the US Government wanted it that way, not because Browning wanted it that way. Hence Condition 1, which the 1910 couldn't even do, was not "the way Browning designed it".

 

[.357magger]

Two thoughts.

The military, until the adoption of the Beretta M9 in the 80s, mandated hammer down on empty chamber for semi automatic handguns (and all semi automatic weapons for that matter) unless specifically ordered to charge the weapon, or upon immediate threat of imminent action. ("lock and load"). That was certainly true in the early years of the 1911 thru Vietnam, as least as far as training goes.

And, the military, whom the 1911 was originally designed for, regard handguns as secondary weapons, at best. And that includes Cavalry troops who carried rifles to fight as dismounted Infantry. The horse moved you inti position faster than foot, and could be used for shock value in a charge, at the risk of losing a lot of your horses. Cavalry troops also carried and trained with swords till WW1 (and lances too for that matter, though primarily in Europe). In Infantry units, the handgun was for NCOs, Officers, or specialty personnel.

Jeff Cooper was the genesis of "Condition 1" as he was developing and teaching using the 1911 as a primary weapon, not a secondary, and using what was previously considered defensive in nature in a more offense role, i.e. "Condition Yellow thru Red". In that light, constantly being "ready ", Condition 1 ups your survival odds.

But it's not the only way, never was, and I don't think JM Browning ever "designed it that way ". He put the thumb safety on as a requirement for the US Army to make it safer/easier to reholster for Cavalry troops.

Okay, that's four thoughts.

(I do occasionally still carry a 1911 and I do it in Condition 1, as I was trained. YMMV, I don't look down on anyone choosing to be armed legally, as long as you train your method. But you are slower off the mark in everything else but Condition 1. )

Okay, five thoughts.

 

[SF VET]

When I was first posted to Germany, Schweinfurt, 3d ID, in late '69, I don't recall if I was issued a 1911, as a mech platoon leader. I do recall my really nice M14, a great rifle. When we would go out on training ops, Graf, Hoenfels, Widlflecken, I just don't remember if I drew from our armory a pistol, but I do recall my M14.

Then, to Vietnam as a MACV advisor, deep in IV Corps, I was issued a 1911 and an M16, and always wore my .45, and would shoot it for fun occasionally. But Keeping it clean and unrusty, since the parkerizing was long worn off, was a real chore. I probably didn't have a round in the chamber, since I had to wipe it down so often. I of course wore it in a tattered military issue hip holster from which it fell out and was lost for a short time, 'till I went back and found my pistol. I didn't take my M16 out with me when I would accompany the locals on their ops, as I already had to carry a PRC 77 radio and plenty of water. When I DROS'ed home 366 days later, and turned in my M16 and .45, I had to caution the armorer that a day before, I had gone down to the river to shoot off my .45 ammo, and the first round was a squib, and it had a bullet stuck in the bore. Lot of good that round would have done for me.

For the Desert Storm War, by then a physician, I was issued a .45, and again, was hard to keep it unrusty, so while I had a mag pouch with two mags,, I doubt I kept a mag in my handgun. As soon as I could turn it back it to our hospital's armorer I did so, glad to get rid of it.

For about two decades, I have shot a lot, fun and competition &

often carry a smaller 1911, and always carry locked and loaded.

Here a pic of me and a Vietnamese LT about to go somewhere in my Boston Whaler.

All the best, and stay safe. SF VET

 

[ProCarryNAustin]

If the argument is that Browning never meant to carry in condition one, do you have anything that says he advocated lowering the hammer on a live round?

My take.
He was a very thorough engineer. Seems to me the design is very safe cocked and locked. Do you think that was a coincidence on his part?
I’ve studied most of his designs and I don’t see anything whimsical in his creations.

Edit
I took a shot timer out once and tried both. I almost have to shift my grip to cock while drawing. I am much faster from condition one and since mine is for defense, condition one it is!

 

[Hair Trigger]

In my understanding, condition one is round in the chamber, cocked. The only thing left to do is grip the weapon which takes care of the grip safety and disengage the manual safety, the weapon is ready to fire. Condition 2 is the same but the weapon is not cocked.

The thought about C1 being less dangerous that C2 comes from C2 having the hammer down on a loaded chamber against an inertial firing pin (floating, not encumbered by a pin or hammer block). Dropping the gun has the risk of discharging it if it were to land on the hammer (and the buttered bread always lands butter side down ) C1 doesn't have that issue, the hammer block will prevent that in the high majority of cases (never say never). If you're carrying C2, there is still one action you have to complete once you draw, to cock the pistol, which takes about as much time as racking the slide if carrying C3 (which is safer than C2), so what's the point?

I think that a lawyer would have a field day in court if you ever used a pistol in a defensive situation and it came out that you were walking around in public with a cocked pistol.

Let's look at that. What is the functional difference between carrying a 1911 in C1, and carrying any striker-fired semiauto with a round in the chamber?

Answer: None. A striker-fired pistol or a hammerless (internal hammer) pin-fired pistol is cocked, if you've chambered a round. So, in either case, a 1911 in C1, or (insert name of other semauto here), you've set the slide safety or striker block safety when you holstered your pistol. In some cases, you even have a secondary safety built in, the grip safety on Browning designs, or a trigger safety on other guns like Ruger and similar designs.

So, carrying in C1 is as safe as other designs, you have two safeties to defeat or release to bring the gun into use. I'm not really concerned whether or not John Browning intended it to be used that way, or what military regs say about it.

 

[AJ]

This is like flogging a dead horse. He said, she said. Different approaches to doing different things change over time. When I joined the Corps, we never carried a magazine in any gun until we were ready to shoot(Condition 4). In the mid 1980's the commandant decreed that individuals on guard duty would carry their weapon with a full magazine in the gun (Condition 3). When I was assigned to the Marine Corps Security Force Battalion we were trained to carry Condition 1 and did so. Now that was a bit over 30 years ago, so how do they carry now?

 

[ContinentalOp]

So, carrying in C1 is as safe as other designs, you have two safeties to defeat or release to bring the gun into use. I'm not really concerned whether or not John Browning intended it to be used that way, or what military regs say about it.

My opinion, FWIW, is that regardless of whether or not Browning intended the 1911 to be carried cocked-and-locked, it's the most efficient way to carry it. That's how I carry mine. I don't want to deal with racking the slide in a life-or-death emergency, and I don't want to deal with lowering the hammer on a live round only to manually cock it if needed. C1 is the best balance between safety and readiness.

 

[Mainsail]

Two thoughts.

The military, until the adoption of the Beretta M9 in the 80s, mandated hammer down on empty chamber for semi automatic handguns (and all semi automatic weapons for that matter) unless specifically ordered to charge the weapon, or upon immediate threat of imminent action. ("lock and load").

Well, to begin, I was in the "military" (20+) and routinely carried the M9 all over the globe. We carried with a round chambered and the safety off, mimicking the revolver manual of arms.

EDIT to add: By 'routinely' I mean that I carried a concealed handgun in a foreign country (or their airspace) for 50% or more of every month for the better part of 20 years.

And, the military, whom the 1911 was originally designed for, regard handguns as secondary weapons, at best.

The only firearm I ever carried during my 20 years was the M56 revolver and the M9.

My opinion on the matter is this. Carry in whatever way makes you most comfortable. But, consider seriously what is the most likely scenario that will occur to you where you live.

For me, I seldom have two available hands necessary to chamber round, thus all my handguns are loaded, round in the chamber, ready to fire. P229 or 1911, they are all one hand accessible (from concealment) and one hand fire-able.

The 1911 is safe to carry in Condition 1. It is completely safe to carry in Condition 1, thus the other conditions aren't more safe, just more complicated. Some people find comfort in complication. If you do, carry that way.

Leave the military and police examples out; very little applies to normal people carrying for their normal daily activities.