Average of 3 rounds...

[SchemaEnigma]

If one goes and watches the body and in-car video of police involved shootings one will clearly see that many of the incidents are not solved in three rounds.

That is just a simple fact.

It is also a simple fact that LEO-involved shootings are largely completely different scenarios than any citizen self-defense scenario.

 

[RCL-09]

I'd use a bit different logic. From what I recall, there are about 10,000 defensive uses of a handgun by civilians each year. Maybe 1,000 where a round is fired by the civilian. So lets say 30,000 defensive gun uses in the last 3 years.

Video is everywhere. I'd put out a challenge to the "5/9/50 rounds aren't enough" folks to come up with 3 civilian defender cases in the last three years (.01%) where an actual civilian self defender (not an off duty LEO) either lost their life or were severely injured because they ran out of ammo. Not because they had crappy tactics or because they weren't aware of what was going on around them. Because they ran out of ammo. They exist, but I don't think there are many.

Most civilian DGUs are not video/photographed.

LEO encounters are recorded (body cams, in-car video), and should not be dismissed as they present documentation real life DGUs.

If an LEO needs more than three rounds to put down a threat why would a civilian need less?

 

[RCL-09]

It is also a simple fact that LEO-involved shootings are largely completely different scenarios than any citizen self-defense scenario.

Why? How so?

 

[Ziggy2525]

Most civilian DGUs are not video/photographed.

LEO encounters are recorded (body cams, in-car video), and should not be dismissed as they present documentation real life DGUs.

If an LEO needs ,pre than three rounds to put down a threat why would a civilian need less?

Because the civilian self defender isn't trying to detain the bad guy and send him to prison like the LEO is. The civilian self defender only needs to convince the bad guy he made a selection error.

 

[biku324]

Citizens don't make felony stops, thousands of traffic or investigative stops, serve felony warrants, serve mental health orders, answer calls for service with unknown circumstances, and on and on. LEO duty is make the arrest or remove public danger. There's no parallel.

 

[RCL-09]

Yet cops and civilians have to deal with violent encounters all the time.

How is facing a knife wielding attacker different for a civilian vs. an LEO.

 

[SchemaEnigma]

Why? How so?

 

[SchemaEnigma]

Yet cops and civilians have to deal with violent encounters all the time.

How is facing a knife wielding attacker different for a civilian vs. an LEO.

You lumped ALL LEO encounters together at first. Now you are cherry picking.

OK, separate out the LEO encounters that mirror civilian ones and report back.

 

[biku324]

RCL 09:

Nonsense. Civilian justifiable homicide numbers are far less than half of those committed by police; there are about a million police, including Feds, and 335 million civilians. I've been a cop for more than 21 years and a civilian for 40; not once as a civilian, even in Iraq, have I faced violence. That isn't true of my policing years, because those circumstances are different.

 

[Jessie]

I would say the difference would be the number of times it may be faced.
Civilian? maybe, just maybe once. LEO? Far greater chance since the civilian is looking to avoid the situation but the LEO is tasked with stopping it.

 

[biku324]

And the circumstances.

 

[RCL-09]

You lumped ALL LEO encounters together at first. Now you are cherry picking.

OK, separate out the LEO encounters that mirror civilian ones and report back.

You confuse the reason for the encounter with what happened in the encounter.

Again, how is facing a knife wielding attacker different for a civilian vs. an LEO.

 

[RCL-09]

RCL 09:

Nonsense. Civilian justifiable homicides are far less than half of those committed by police. I've been a cop for more than 21 years and a civilian for 40; not once as a civilian, even in Iraq, have I faced violence. That isn't true of my policing years, because those circumstances are different.

You conflate what happened in the encounter with the the number of encounters.

Facing a knife wielding attacker is no different for a LEO than for a civilian.

 

[Ziggy2525]

You conflate what happened in the encounter with the the number of encounters.

Facing a knife wielding attacker is no different for a LEO than for a civilian.

I get no one will convince you otherwise, but I think there's value here for others who are reading the thread.

I have a daughter that was carjacked at knife point as she was leaving work and walking to her car. Fortunately, she didn't get hurt, the stupid carjacker didn't know how to drive a stick shift, and he ran off.

If she had been armed and had shot the guy non-fatally one time in the chest, I'm pretty sure he would have decided the car wasn't really worth all that effort and had somewhere else to be.

On the other side, if the police would have been there and confronted him, he's not going anywhere and it may have turned into "you ain't taking me alive, copper!"

You may not see it, but it's different.

 

[RCL-09]

I get no one will convince you otherwise, but I think there's value here for others who are reading the thread.

I have a daughter that was carjacked at knife point as she was leaving work and walking to her car. Fortunately, she didn't get hurt, the stupid carjacker didn't know how to drive a stick shift, and he ran off.

If she had been armed and had shot the guy non-fatally one time in the chest, I'm pretty sure he would have decided the car wasn't really worth all that effort and had somewhere else to be.

On the other side, if the police would have been there and confronted him, he's not going anywhere and it may have turned into "you ain't taking me alive, copper!"

You may not see it, but it's different.

People are confusing the reason for the encounter with the actual encounter.

I'm glad she made out okay, but in your daughters case she was unarmed, so it isn't really applicable to the point.

The discussion is when it hits the fan and the only action is to draw AND fire what happens?

 

[Jessie]

I think you just answered your own question.

 

[Donn]

And just like that, this thread's descended into a "yeah but, what if" feeding frenzy.

 

[RCL-09]

I think you just answered your own question.

How so? Please explain.

 

[SchemaEnigma]

You confuse the reason for the encounter with what happened in the encounter.

Again, how is facing a knife wielding attacker different for a civilian vs. an LEO.

I'm not confusing anything. You are trying to use general LEO stats for all scenarios as somehow relevant.

Again, how are all LEO encounters like civilian ones? That is what you first apparently wanted us to infer from your "simple fact" statement.

If not, explain yourself. How is the number of shots, etc., stats from all LEO encounters relevant to civilian ones?

If you want to focus on a single scenario, again, please provide the LEO stats for that single scenario.

 

[SchemaEnigma]

You conflate what happened in the encounter with the the number of encounters.

Facing a knife wielding attacker is no different for a LEO than for a civilian.

OK, so what are the stats for LEOs in this scenario?