LAPD and the 1917

[Muley Gil]

I just finished reading the Handgunning column in the May 2021 issue of Guns & Ammo magazine. The column was written by Jeremy Stafford and in it he stated that while working in the Special Projects Unit at the Los Angeles Police Department's Firearms Section, he found a document from 1938 where the then chief, David Davidson addressed the Board of Police Commissioners. Chief Davidson related that a 1925 survey of the department's officers revealed that sidearms were of many different makes and calibers and that some of them couldn't be fired and that the ammo had corroded and was useless. Afterwards, LAPD standardized the Colt and S&W 1917s.

Have any of our Forum members seen this 1938 document? It would be a good addition to our base of knowledge about these fine old revolvers.

IIRC, several 1917s owned by forum members have been traced back to usage by the LAPD. This topic is of special interest to me as my first police revolver was a reblued 1917 that I carried as a reserve deputy sheriff back in 1976. Over the years, I also carried a 1917 that I had cut down to 4", round butted and added a post WW II adjustable rear sight and a ramp front sight. I also carried a stock 5 1/2" Colt New Service 1917 for a while.

 

[Absalom]

Sorry, I got nothing on that document. But I would also love to see that, as well as the 1925 survey of what variety the officers carried back then.

By the way, the chief in 1938 was not "David Davidson", but James Davis, better known as "Two Gun Davis".

A real force in modernizing the LAPD, but politically also one of the most corrupt chiefs they ever had.

 

[Absalom]

I re-found another picture I remembered I had in my random files of historical photos somewhere.

Chief Davis created a 50-member "Gun Squad". His declared intention was to make war on violent criminals and radicals, but his critics accused him of just making war on the competition. The LAPD became mired in the rackets itself when the East Coast mob with Benny "Bugsy" Siegel and Mickey Cohen moved into L.A. during Davis' second term (1933-1939).

This photo from 1935 supposedly shows members of the Gun Squad. It's hard to say, but unless these guys all have really big hands, these revolvers appear .38-sized to me. Note the California preference for long barrels.

 

[SlamFire]

. Chief Davidson related that a 1925 survey of the department's officers revealed that sidearms were of many different makes and calibers and that some of them couldn't be fired and that the ammo had corroded and was useless.

As a comment, I would not doubt that. Police are surprisingly uninterested in weapon maintenance, or shooting.

I shoot with a former State Trooper. He was a Department Head and told me he went to the house of one of the men in his department. The shotgun in the man's Police vehicle was rusted shut and could not be cycled.

 

[Muley Gil]

As a comment, I would not doubt that. Police are surprisingly uninterested in weapon maintenance, or shooting.

I shoot with a former State Trooper. He was a Department Head and told me he went to the house of one of the men in his department. The shotgun in the man's Police vehicle was rusted shut and could not be cycled.

Oh yeah. I was the gun guy at my sheriff's office and at the police department. I cleaned up a number of sidearms that were just this side of inoperable. Officers would fill up their bullet loops and then never take out the cartridges and clean them.

One officer had a nickel M39 that the slide wouldn't come back. We were working night shift and our department was next to a railroad embankment. I fired the pistol, it ejected the round and the slide still wouldn't move by hand. I took it home at the end of the shift and had to use a rubber mallet to get it open. I cleaned out the gunk and took it back to work on the next night shift. I asked the officer why he carried the M39 instead of a revolver. His reply-"It's sporty."

 

[AJ]

Oh yeah. I was the gun guy at my sheriff's office and at the police department. I cleaned up a number of sidearms that were just this side of inoperable. Officers would fill up their bullet loops and then never take out the cartridges and clean them.

One officer had a nickel M39 that the slide wouldn't come back. We were working night shift and our department was next to a railroad embankment. I fired the pistol, it ejected the round and the slide still wouldn't move by hand. I took it home at the end of the shift and had to use a rubber mallet to get it open. I cleaned out the gunk and took it back to work on the next night shift. I asked the officer why he carried the M39 instead of a revolver. His reply-"It's sporty."

We had 22 different law enforcement agencies that used our ranges when I was stationed in Calif. at NWS Seal Beach. Most of them had cleaning equipment laid out for pre and post shooting cleaning. Quite a few needed cleaning before they shot.

 

[Old Corp]

Most I worked with on the PD knew I was the resident 'gun geek'.
Our quals would usually come on the last day of a shift rotation, with a weekend off before starting back on Monday.

There were several guys that'd hand me their issued M66 or 870 shotgun after quals and I'd take them home, clean them thoroughly and return to them at work. IIRC, think I got $10 per gun, and I enjoyed doing it.
Win-win.

 

[jframejoey]

Anyone notice the guy with the wood hand in the Gun Squad picture?

 

[AJ]

Anyone notice the guy with the wood hand in the Gun Squad picture?

Saw that, have not figured out if it is wood/prosthetic or gloved.

 

[Tom K]

Anyone notice the guy with the wood hand in the Gun Squad picture?

You mean "Lefty"? Also, every single one of them has his finger on the trigger.

 

[Scharfschuetzer]

"By the way, the chief in 1938 was not "David Davidson", but James Davis, better known as "Two Gun Davis"."

That's an interesting photo and backstops his ability with firearms. Near his badge, he wears the civilian issue of either the DCM Distinguished Pistol Shot or the Distinguished Rifleman badge. I'm not sure what the second badge is, but it's some sort of shooting medal probably.

As one of my department's FTOs, I was always amazed at how some of the officers could foul up their guns between training an quarterly quals. Just amazing. I often found that there was a strong correlation between dirty sidearms and incompetence or lazy performance on the job.

 

[Muley Gil]

You mean "Lefty"? Also, every single one of them has his finger on the trigger.

Hard to spin it without having your finger inside the trigger guard.

It used to be taught to put your finger on the trigger during the draw. Times change, as does training.

 

[AJ]

Hard to spin it without having your finger inside the trigger guard.

It used to be taught to put your finger on the trigger during the draw. Times change, as does training.

A long time ago, I was taught to put my finger on the trigger of match M1911's when releasing the slide to chamber a round. Doing this locked the trigger mechanism and kept the hammer from following the slide home.

 

[Dump1567]

I picked-up a Colt New Service a couple of years back that dated to 1926 (324961) that shipped to Cline & Cline Co., Los Angeles CA. I speculated that it was an LAPD gun (bought in Orange Co., CA). It serial numbered 22 digits from this LAPD marked one that sold at auction.
Colt New Service Revolver 45 Long Colt | Rock Island Auction

I had a thread on the Colt Forum about it. Here's someone's response;

Cline & Cline was a retailer to whom I've seen many Colts & Smiths shipped.

FWIW I've seen many commercial Smith & Wesson Model 1917s shipped to Los Angeles in the 1920s. It seems that .45 ACP revolers seemed to be pretty popular there at that time, at least more so than other cities.

And another quote from thecoltguy;

The first group of New Service commercial revolvers chambered in .45 Acp. began in 1925 with the 324,000 serial number range. Many of these were shipped to Los Angeles for the L.A.P.D. pistol team. I have serial number 324064 and it was shipped to Tufts-Lyon Arms Company in Los Angeles as a 10 gun shipment on 12/2/1925. All of these that I have seen were supplied with special checkered walnut stocks as shown in the picture below. Many had the checkered grip strap for target shooting use. I would assume that your gun was one of these as it falls in the correct serial number range. I hope this information helps.

I currently have a commercial S&W 1917 that probably dates to the early to mid 1920's, so this has sparked renewed interest for me. I'll get a letter request off to S&W.

This also may be of interest:
RARE - LASD Pistol Team Exhibition, Historic, 1936, Color enhanced
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDP8BRSEjrA"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDP8BRSEjrA[/ame]

 

[Miami_JBT]

Getting most cops to qual is like getting a five year old to go to the dentist.

 

[Miami_JBT]

I'm a big fan of .45 caliber wheel guns. Love my two M1917s along with my Model 625 and New Service.

I've always wondered the history of my New Service, it was made in 1903.

 

[AJ]

Getting most cops to qual is like getting a five year old to go to the dentist.

The most unsafe group of people that I know with guns are law enforcement officers. They have trouble qualifying and they handle their weapons in unsafe manners. Would rather be teaching novice shooters than a bunch of cops. Lots of true stories I could recite, but not enough space here.

 

[Dump1567]

I'm a big fan of .45 caliber wheel guns. Love my two M1917s along with my Model 625 and New Service.



I've always wondered the history of my New Service, it was made in 1903.

There's always the letter route.

I've had a few New Services over the years that I should have kept, as I love the nostalgia associated with these guns. The one I posted above, and one in .45 Colt that lettered to Tucson, AZ (were I ended-up retiring). But as one of the Judges I used to work for always said; "You don't know what you don't know".

 

[kobsw]

I picked-up a Colt New Service a couple of years back that dated to 1926 (324961) that shipped to Cline & Cline Co., Los Angeles CA. I speculated that it was an LAPD gun (bought in Orange Co., CA). It serial numbered 22 digits from this LAPD marked one that sold at auction.
Colt New Service Revolver 45 Long Colt | Rock Island Auction

I had a thread on the Colt Forum about it. Here's someone's response;



And another quote from thecoltguy;



I currently have a commercial S&W 1917 that probably dates to the early to mid 1920's, so this has sparked renewed interest for me. I'll get a letter request off to S&W.

This also may be of interest:
RARE - LASD Pistol Team Exhibition, Historic, 1936, Color enhanced
RARE - LASD Pistol Team Exhibition, Historic, 1936, Color enhanced - YouTube

OMG!!!!! HAHAHA!!

They were either the bravest most trusting souls in the world or well you know...

Kobsw

 

[Absalom]

...Also, every single one of them has his finger on the trigger.

Has anyone ever made a study of when the "finger outside the trigger guard" rule/habit/doctrine actually became a thing, historically speaking?

Might be interesting to take a systematic chronological look at historical photos and footage, gun and outdoor publications, movies, and such.

I don't think it's that old.