Victory data base
- Thread starter zonker5
- Start date
Sounds like you have a standard .38 Military & Police rather than a pre Victory. Can you post pictures? Does it have checkered service grips with medallions? Does it have a lanyard loop on the butt?
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
That appears to be a standard military-shipped US Victory from around Feb/March 1944. Likely went to the Navy.
For lettering it, follow the link below; you want the “letter of authenticity”.
Letter Process – Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation
ordnanceguy
Member
Hi Ron:
Your Victory is already in the Victory Model Database. The Database records that your Victory was sold at Cowan's Auction in November, 2005. I suspect that you probably paid more that the 2005 auction sale price of $172.
If you get a letter please let us know how it turns out.
Regards,
Charlie
Thank you for the information.
Thank you for the information. I will post after I get the letter.
45B10
Member
45B10
Member
Another Submission
Also picked this on up Friday
Serial Number 843970, 5in barrel, marked 38S&W, 3 1/2 ton on opposite side of barrel, neutered lanyard ring and a small BNP stamp with some faint marking above that. Gun is also marked 38 special on left side..
I'm figuring a lend lease gun that was later converted to 38 special, but honestly have no clue.
Any help is much appreciated
Also picked this on up Friday
Serial Number 843970, 5in barrel, marked 38S&W, 3 1/2 ton on opposite side of barrel, neutered lanyard ring and a small BNP stamp with some faint marking above that. Gun is also marked 38 special on left side..
I'm figuring a lend lease gun that was later converted to 38 special, but honestly have no clue.
Any help is much appreciated
Attachments
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
45810:
Both your guns are British Service models, the 843- a pre-Victory from fall 1941, the V 582- a Lend-lease Victory from early/mid-1944.
Both appear to have been refinished, since they are both missing the large S&W logo on the sideplate and the MADE IN U.S.A. on the front frame.
The 843- seems to have been in considerably rougher shape before the refinish than the Victory. It’s been more extensively worked, hammer and trigger polished and ejector rod also refinished, which was not done on the Victory.
The BNP indicates British commercial proofing post-war. The CAL .38 SPECIAL on the frame does indeed mean it was converted post-war; we see this stamp occasionally, but most guns of this type were converted without any such marking. We don’t know which converter applied the stamp.
Both your guns are British Service models, the 843- a pre-Victory from fall 1941, the V 582- a Lend-lease Victory from early/mid-1944.
Both appear to have been refinished, since they are both missing the large S&W logo on the sideplate and the MADE IN U.S.A. on the front frame.
The 843- seems to have been in considerably rougher shape before the refinish than the Victory. It’s been more extensively worked, hammer and trigger polished and ejector rod also refinished, which was not done on the Victory.
The BNP indicates British commercial proofing post-war. The CAL .38 SPECIAL on the frame does indeed mean it was converted post-war; we see this stamp occasionally, but most guns of this type were converted without any such marking. We don’t know which converter applied the stamp.
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45B10
Member
The 843 was pretty roung and has been buffed or blasted hard as the markings are pretty light..
They both still have the made in the USA stamp, but the camera washed them out due to lighting I guess. Interesting thing about the victory is most stamps are pretty sharp, but the logo isn't visible, like I cannot see where it was ever there, even under magnification. I wonder if the sideplate may have been changed or it wasn't stamped with a logo ?
AJ
US Veteran
On 843, I can see what looks to me as pitting on the cylinder. It appears to have been buffed/blasted and parked. Have a LGS that does that to almost any pitted gun that they get in.
45B10
Member
Chamberlin
Member
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- Apr 18, 2021
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Going through my father's and mine collection, I found this very early Victory pistol, chambered in .38 S&W Special.
S/N V10440, all matching including the right side wood grip (the yoke numbers match each other but are different of course).
This appears to be one of the very early 'V' series pistols, still produced with the medallion checkered grips. Most interestingly though, it seems to be one of the early May-August(?) 1942 Parkerized finish guns, before they were forced to use other finishes due to trademarking issues? Can anyone confirm?
Any additional info would be helpful as well!
S/N V10440, all matching including the right side wood grip (the yoke numbers match each other but are different of course).
This appears to be one of the very early 'V' series pistols, still produced with the medallion checkered grips. Most interestingly though, it seems to be one of the early May-August(?) 1942 Parkerized finish guns, before they were forced to use other finishes due to trademarking issues? Can anyone confirm?
Any additional info would be helpful as well!
Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! The magna grips are not original to the gun. Also, they have been modified on the left panel for a speed loader, it appears. I'll let the experts comment on the gun.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Indeed, as Guy says, these are magna stocks that did most definitely not come with this gun originally. So when you say:
... that is a bit surprising and can’t be unless somebody stamped a new pair of replacement stocks with the matching number. The factory started the smooth walnut standard Victory style in January 1942, around 90,000 guns before the V prefix even started.
The 2187 parkerized guns happened around serial 980,000, so your gun is definitely too late for that.
As far as I can tell, the finish appears the original sandblast Black Magic, although the very noticeable color difference between barrel and rest in the two side views is a bit odd. Artificial light always makes it hard to evaluate Victory finishes.
... that is a bit surprising and can’t be unless somebody stamped a new pair of replacement stocks with the matching number. The factory started the smooth walnut standard Victory style in January 1942, around 90,000 guns before the V prefix even started.
The 2187 parkerized guns happened around serial 980,000, so your gun is definitely too late for that.
As far as I can tell, the finish appears the original sandblast Black Magic, although the very noticeable color difference between barrel and rest in the two side views is a bit odd. Artificial light always makes it hard to evaluate Victory finishes.
Chamberlin
Member
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2021
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- 8
- Reaction score
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Thank you for your fast responses guys - much appreciated.
Forgive me, I'm a total newb to these S&W WWII era serial numbers, and even though I read a ton about it today on various websites, I think I'm misinterpreting the 'timeline' post from this website, which was the root cause of my confusion:
"1942: The Victory Models - Revolver production continued, reaching serial number 1000000 on April 24, 1942, whereupon the V-prefix (Victory) serialization was started at V1, reaching (approximately) V210000 at year-end 1942. Grip panels were changed sometime early in 1942 (in the low 900,000 SN range) from checkered wood with medallions to simpler smooth round top wooden stocks without medallions. A sandblasted Parkerized (phosphate) finish replaced the Black Magic oxide finish beginning in early May 1942 at serial number (approximately) 940000 to further speed up manufacture. Due to royalty payment issues, Parkerizing was soon replaced by a similar proprietary phosphate finish. The new S&W phosphate finish was phased in, completely replacing the earlier Black Magic blued finish by mid-August 1942. S&W factory letters refer this S&W phosphate finish as "Military Midnight Black." Whether this was an "official" name is unknown. It has been stated that the majority of all 1942 revolvers produced in the serial number range of V6 to V40000 will be found chambered in .38 S&W caliber, but without any doubt, some in this range were also produced in caliber .38 S&W Special. The first five 1942 Victory-series revolvers (V1 to V5) were made up in .38 S&W Special caliber as presentation pieces, having the earlier commercial Carbonia bright blued finish."
I think what you guys are saying, is that the phrase in bold above says that they 'changed grips around 900,000 S/N' of the *pre-V* serial numbers, not 900,000 in the Victory range.... I was thrown off because of the sentence it came right after, which talks of the beginning of the V1 serial range. But that also makes more sense too, otherwise there'd be almost a million Victory pistols out there with checkered grips, which you don't see. I also understand now that if you see any notation in the 900,000 S/N range, you're talking about pre-Victory guns, per this:
1944 – Victory production reached serial number (approximately) V740000 by year-end 1944, with few changes made in features and finish.
After that it was all SV prefix guns. OK thanks again for helping me run through the timeline changes on that.
Also, I'd agree on the finish; having done different types of home Parkerization on guns in the past, you get to know what Parkerization looks like, I could see my Victory pistol being that magic black finish, as it doesn't really have that greenish nor greyish look to it...With a sample size of one gun though, I'm going to have to trust the experts on that!
Anyway, here are some more photos of my pistol with the grips removed; serial number looks legit to me, but easy enough to stamp wood I guess.
So time to go hunt down some nice smooth grips then?
Forgive me, I'm a total newb to these S&W WWII era serial numbers, and even though I read a ton about it today on various websites, I think I'm misinterpreting the 'timeline' post from this website, which was the root cause of my confusion:
"1942: The Victory Models - Revolver production continued, reaching serial number 1000000 on April 24, 1942, whereupon the V-prefix (Victory) serialization was started at V1, reaching (approximately) V210000 at year-end 1942. Grip panels were changed sometime early in 1942 (in the low 900,000 SN range) from checkered wood with medallions to simpler smooth round top wooden stocks without medallions. A sandblasted Parkerized (phosphate) finish replaced the Black Magic oxide finish beginning in early May 1942 at serial number (approximately) 940000 to further speed up manufacture. Due to royalty payment issues, Parkerizing was soon replaced by a similar proprietary phosphate finish. The new S&W phosphate finish was phased in, completely replacing the earlier Black Magic blued finish by mid-August 1942. S&W factory letters refer this S&W phosphate finish as "Military Midnight Black." Whether this was an "official" name is unknown. It has been stated that the majority of all 1942 revolvers produced in the serial number range of V6 to V40000 will be found chambered in .38 S&W caliber, but without any doubt, some in this range were also produced in caliber .38 S&W Special. The first five 1942 Victory-series revolvers (V1 to V5) were made up in .38 S&W Special caliber as presentation pieces, having the earlier commercial Carbonia bright blued finish."
I think what you guys are saying, is that the phrase in bold above says that they 'changed grips around 900,000 S/N' of the *pre-V* serial numbers, not 900,000 in the Victory range.... I was thrown off because of the sentence it came right after, which talks of the beginning of the V1 serial range. But that also makes more sense too, otherwise there'd be almost a million Victory pistols out there with checkered grips, which you don't see. I also understand now that if you see any notation in the 900,000 S/N range, you're talking about pre-Victory guns, per this:
1944 – Victory production reached serial number (approximately) V740000 by year-end 1944, with few changes made in features and finish.
After that it was all SV prefix guns. OK thanks again for helping me run through the timeline changes on that.
Also, I'd agree on the finish; having done different types of home Parkerization on guns in the past, you get to know what Parkerization looks like, I could see my Victory pistol being that magic black finish, as it doesn't really have that greenish nor greyish look to it...With a sample size of one gun though, I'm going to have to trust the experts on that!
Anyway, here are some more photos of my pistol with the grips removed; serial number looks legit to me, but easy enough to stamp wood I guess.
So time to go hunt down some nice smooth grips then?
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ordnanceguy
Member
Chamberlin:
Nice gun. And interesting, too.
Is that a ★ marking on the butt? If so, that means that your revolver has been back to the factory for some work. And that probably explains why you have Magna stocks that are serial number matching which, with the low five digit serial number, would ordinarily make no sense at all....unless your revolver had gone back to the factory.
My guess is that the Magnas were fitted to your revolver during this rework. Smooth walnut stocks would have been the original stocks, but I would not substitute them now as the Magnas are part of the history of the gun.
Your photos are too small for me to be certain but isn't that a 3 digit number on the left side of the grip frame near the butt? If so, that is actually a date applied by the factory that indicates when the work was performed.
Hope that clears things up for you.
Regards,
Charlie
Nice gun. And interesting, too.
Is that a ★ marking on the butt? If so, that means that your revolver has been back to the factory for some work. And that probably explains why you have Magna stocks that are serial number matching which, with the low five digit serial number, would ordinarily make no sense at all....unless your revolver had gone back to the factory.
My guess is that the Magnas were fitted to your revolver during this rework. Smooth walnut stocks would have been the original stocks, but I would not substitute them now as the Magnas are part of the history of the gun.
Your photos are too small for me to be certain but isn't that a 3 digit number on the left side of the grip frame near the butt? If so, that is actually a date applied by the factory that indicates when the work was performed.
Hope that clears things up for you.
Regards,
Charlie
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