Texas Next?

[steelslaver]

I know this view is unpopular, but just know that so-called Constitutional Carry means EVERYONE can carry - inner city thugs without felony arrests, crazies with no court-ordered commitment, angry ex-boyfriend/girlfriends without restraining orders, addicts without felonies (and there are LOTS of Vicodin freaks who are indistinguishable from the straight and sober), people who believe what they see about guns on TV, movies, or in video games, and those who are really, really scared and think a gun is a magic wand that will always keep them from harm.

Those same people can easily obtain a permit and often do. The inner city thugs simply carry anyway and if caught the charge is seldom actually used. In fact in many states the felony arrest would not prevent them getting a permit. Just because some one was arrested for a felony does not mean they committed one My sister had a Rx for Fentanal before she passed and that would not have precluded her from getting a permit. In fact in the case of legally Rx narcotics, your medical right to privacy would preclude the issuing authority from such information. Plenty of ex boy friends with restraining orders have killed their girl friends without a permit of any kind. I am sure as a LEO you must have noticed that those bent on murder seldom worry much about laws or permits

In other words it don't change much

 

[steelslaver]

Here's where it gets confusing for me... Here in Tennessee there currently is a law that we can conceal carry inside bars and saloons..The kicker is that you cannot drink alcohol while in the bar...I'm trying to remember when the last time I went to a bar and didn't drink?.. Now effective July 1st we can carry without a license if we re over 21 etc. Believe there are some restrictions about places that prohibit weapons. Going to a gun class this week hopefully they will answer questions.

I go in places that serve alcohol all the time and seldom drink. Here it is hard to find a supper club that doesn't serve alcohol. If you go in a bar with the intention of drinking you should not be carrying a gun. That simple. If you carry a gun with or without a permit. you best know the laws.

 

[swsig]

Back to the OP's topic:

Texas House Passes Constitutional Carry Bill – CBS Dallas / Fort Worth

More of the story at the link. The usual suspects utter the usual hysterical warnings. None of which have taken place in any of the twenty other states that have adopted some form of permitless carry.

It doesn't seem all that long ago that only VT and AK allowed permitless carry and soon we might be at almost half the states having some form of it.

Progress.

Here, presented in simple graphic form, is the reason the Texas Senate is balking at passing a constitutional carry bill:

There is considerable pushback against constitutional carry by police officials, and many senators do not want to come across as anti-police. Although Texas is a gun-friendly state, it is also different in one major way from all of the other states that currently have constitutional carry. While the other constitutional carry states are primarily rural, Texas is unique in having three of the largest urban areas in the United States: Dallas-Fort Worth, Houston-Galveston, and San Antonio-Austin. Police officials there are concerned about about the possible negative consequences of large numbers of untrained gun owners carrying in urban environments. Here's an older news link with the police chiefs at the Capitol:

Texas Police Chiefs Oppose Constitutional Carry Bills Championed By State GOP – CBS Dallas / Fort Worth

 

[Justin T]

The flaw in your argument is you assume those police chiefs are of the same mind as “civilian” texans in other areas.

Those police chiefs are brought in from other places (usually other large cities) and hired by democrat administrations (all large cities here are run by democrats or “progressives”-you know this). They take on the flavor of the dishes they are served with, y’know? They are often not really gun friendly at all.

I understand the “why” premise of the post above, don’t get me wrong. Texas state politicians are concerned due to input from law enforcement officials.

Buuuuttt... moving to the extreme end of the position, they are influencing positions with their input. In other words, their influence is making policy. In comparison, I am reminded of an article i read recently about New York reactions to a case that SCOTUS will hear about carrying firearms in New York. The NYPD police commissioner is quoted as saying, “The NYPD should continue to be able to set and regulate the conditions that must be met to legally carry a loaded firearm in our streets”. So police have law-making ability now?

 

[swsig]

I did not intend to make an "argument". I just wanted to present info about why constitutional carry is having a difficult time in a gun friendly state. I avoid urban areas like the plague, but that won't make them go away, and the legislature has to deal with the reality of their existance. But the chance of local police making New York-style gun policy that is more restrictive than Texas state law is zilch. Every time Texas municipalities create local ordinances that are unacceptable to the legislature, the legislature slaps them down by passing laws that stop them from creating and enforcing such ordinances.

Constitutional carry has come closer than it ever has to passage in Texas. If it doesn't pass this session, I'm predicting it will pass next session, and Governor-for-Life Abbott will most certainly sign it. Urban law enforcement will then learn to adapt to that reality.

However, I'm guessing passage of constitutional carry won't make much difference. The bad guys who don't qualify to carry legally will still carry anyway. Most good guy gun enthusiasts are already licensed to carry and will continue to do so. And the legally qualified, but gun-indifferent people in the middle will mostly continue to not carry.

 

[GaryS]

Despite being "gun friendly" Texas took a long time to catch up with less gun friendly states when it came to carrying a handgun for self protection.

In contrast, MA which is not a gun friendly state, has had concealed carry for as long as I can remember. MA also doesn't have binding signage. Note that I am not saying MA is better than TX, it's actually a surprise that MA doesn't have some of the restrictions common in other parts of the country.

As I recall, it wasn't until G.W. Bush became Governor that concealed carry was legalized. Ann Richards vetoed the bill at least once.

Texas originally required 16 hours of training in order to get a permit. There was also significant cost involved.

I was surprised a few years ago when Open Carry passed the legislature. From my visits there and discussions with the several friends I have there, it seems that the state was dead set against it.

That said, once concealed carry passed, the culture in Texas changed. Rick Perry signed executive orders to extend reciprocity to some difficult to deal with states (MA being among the worst).

I won't go into the TABC regulations on carrying where alcohol is present. Not that they are bad, but they can be confusing.

I did not intend to make an "argument". I just wanted to present info about why constitutional carry is having a difficult time in a gun friendly state. I avoid urban areas like the plague, but that won't make them go away, and the legislature has to deal with the reality of their existance. But the chance of local police making New York-style gun policy that is more restrictive than Texas state law is zilch. Every time Texas municipalities create local ordinances that are unacceptable to the legislature, the legislature slaps them down by passing laws that stop them from creating and enforcing such ordinances.

Constitutional carry has come closer than it ever has to passage in Texas. If it doesn't pass this session, I'm predicting it will pass next session, and Governor-for-Life Abbot will most certainly sign it. Urban law enforcement will then learn to adapt to that reality.

I'm guessing passage of constitutional carry won't make much difference. The bad guys who don't qualify to carry legally will still carry anyway. Most good guy gun enthusiasts are already licensed to carry and will continue to do so. And the legally qualified, but gun-indifferent people in the middle will mostly continue to not carry.

 

[Rolex28]

For me it still is all about safety. I agree that one 6-8 hour class on gun safety is not the answer. But it is better than no class. Gun ownership especially for self defense is all about continued training and practice.. I will bet a nickel that more wildlife hunters practice more than self defense folks. Now that Tennessee has passed a carry bill effective July 1st 2021, more folks are out buying weapons knowing they can carry without classes, fees, and training etc.. Just pass the background check and strap it on!!

 

[SchemaEnigma]

...
That said, once concealed carry passed, the culture in Texas changed. Rick Perry signed executive orders to extend reciprocity to some difficult to deal with states (MA being among the worst).
...

But, not including Minnesota. So, if I want to take my handgun to Texas when I visit my relatives there, I have to either unload it & lock it up or get a non-resident permit from a state like Florida.

I lived in Texas for 15 years. The best way to describe Texas state and local politics is "complicated." A strange mix of old boy, conservative, and progressive and does not always follow predictable party alignment.

 

[GaryS]

The problem with training requirements is that they can be made so difficult and so expensive that a lot of people won't be able to afford to get a license.

Think of it in terms of "Poll Taxes" that were used in some states to disenfranchise poor people. Or, think of it in terms of the 25% sales tax on guns and ammunition that some politicians have proposed.

I think it's just West Virginia that abolished sales tax on guns and ammunition because the legislature felt that it was an onerous burden that disproportionately affected the poor.

For me it still is all about safety. I agree that one 6-8 hour class on gun safety is not the answer. But it is better than no class. Gun ownership especially for self defense is all about continued training and practice.. I will bet a nickel that more wildlife hunters practice more than self defense folks. Now that Tennessee has passed a carry bill effective July 1st 2021, more folks are out buying weapons knowing they can carry without classes, fees, and training etc.. Just pass the background check and strap it on!!

 

[SchemaEnigma]

For me it still is all about safety. I agree that one 6-8 hour class on gun safety is not the answer. But it is better than no class. ...

Not much better.

If you (i.e. "they") are serious about safety, there would be a required continuing range qualification for all who want to carry.

Short of something like that, the sheep-dip training is nothing more than a façade.

 

[SAFireman]

Looks like it is probably going to pass....our governor stated that he will sign the bill if it makes it to his desk. There was news blurb from our local guys - Gov. Greg Abbott says he'll sign bill allowing permitless carrying of handguns | WOAI

 

[GaryS]

Why Rick Perry picked my state to extend reciprocity (one way) to I don't know. I just know that I like it!

Texas is very complicated in terms of politics. Again, from friends and relatives I know there I've discovered the following.

Land and water rights are incredibly important.
Counties by and large have more power than the state.
The Lt. Governor is the most powerful politician in the state.
The Gov. is relatively weak.
The Land Commissioner is a powerful position.

On a side not, and I'm sorry to drift off topic, the bureaucracy is not catching up with the increase in population. It took my daughter 6 months and a phone call to her state senator to get her social worker license issued. The excuse was that the office is understaffed. The same goes for a lot of other functions.

Back to Texas Constitutional Carry. If that passes, depending on the wording, it may not matter what licenses you have from other states.

But, not including Minnesota. So, if I want to take my handgun to Texas when I visit my relatives there, I have to either unload it & lock it up or get a non-resident permit from a state like Florida.

I lived in Texas for 15 years. The best way to describe Texas state and local politics is "complicated." A strange mix of old boy, conservative, and progressive and does not always follow predictable party alignment.

 

[ladder13]

The Constitution and B of R’s should require training and fees to keep society safe.

Constitutional Extremist here.

 

[GaryS]

Maybe they should, but they don't. Unless you consider "well regulated" to mean training.

As to fees, again no. Fees have traditionally been used to deny poor people of the exercise of Rights enumerated in the Constitution.

BTW, Gov. Abbott said yesterday that when the bill reaches his desk, he will sign it.

The Constitution and B of R’s should require training and fees to keep society safe.

Constitutional Extremist here.

 

[ladder13]

Maybe they should, but they don't. Unless you consider "well regulated" to mean training.

As to fees, again no. Fees have traditionally been used to deny poor people of the exercise of Rights enumerated in the Constitution.

BTW, Gov. Abbott said yesterday that when the bill reaches his desk, he will sign it.

You know I was kidding?

 

[TX-Dennis]

In a lot of ways Texas politics are strange stuff. I like the fact that our legislators are part time and only meet every two years for a limited period of time. That helps ensure that they are "regular folks" who hold other jobs the rest of the time rather than professional lifetime politicians. Although they have to be able to take five months off from their other jobs every other year which means most of them are relatively wealthy compared to most of their constituents.

On the other hand our state constitution is a ridiculous ponderous beast that regulates things that a constitution should not - things that are handled legislatively in other states. As a result every election comes with a slate of proposed constitutional amendments. I routinely vote against most of them, but they almost always pass.

I discovered yesterday that my state senator is opposed to constitutional carry. I made a polite call to his office urging him to reconsider. They claim to have received nearly as many calls against as they have for the bill. I find that difficult to believe in our very conservative district. That just proves that just because a guy claims to be a Republican doesn't guarantee that he's on our side. I guess I should have voted for his opponent in the primary last time around. Won't make that mistake again.

 

[GaryS]

Sorry, my Sarcas-o-meter is out of calibration!

You know I was kidding?

 

[dockmurgw]

I discovered yesterday that my state senator is opposed to constitutional carry. I made a polite call to his office urging him to reconsider. They claim to have received nearly as many calls against as they have for the bill. I find that difficult to believe in our very conservative district. That just proves that just because a guy claims to be a Republican doesn't guarantee that he's on our side. I guess I should have voted for his opponent in the primary last time around. Won't make that mistake again.

Something else to consider, some of the calls he is receiving might be echoing the opinion of some on this forum, that CC is dangerous because it removes the requirement for training.

 

[Justin T]

Also also, just because they are receiving calls doesn’t mean they come from people in your district. I live in the Houston area and can call anyone I want, including representative offices in any area i choose. I can deliver any message i choose but it’s up to the representative to decide whether the message i leave means anything relative to that particular constituency.

Back to topic: a senate session breakout committee meeting was held this morning to discuss HB1927’s “constitutionality”. Itried to listen to the live stream but the audio wasn’t working. Anybody know how it turned out?

 

[double-dipper]

The Supreme Court agreed on Monday to hear an appeal to expand gun rights in the United States in a New York case over the right to carry a firearm in public for self-defense.

If the Supreme Court rules in favor of constitutional carry that's a game changer. I'm all for states rights but, New York, California, Delaware, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey and Rhode Island would all have to allow CCW. and Texas!