.455_Hunter
Member
Some more info on different Winchester .38 Special "Q" loads from the 70's...
Ammo Evolution: .38 Special Treasury Load | SOFREP
Ammo Evolution: .38 Special Treasury Load | SOFREP
.38 Special +P Winchester JSP flat
- Thread starter Daimler1989
- Start date
Daimler1989, You are right about journalists as a rule knowing little about firearms.
They are as bad about it here in the states as in Germany.
They are as bad about it here in the states as in Germany.
ironhead7544
Member
You might check S&W ammo. IIRC, they were buying Winchester brass early on.
ironhead7544
Member
S&W used to make their own brand of ammo. I think they used brass from Winchester at first. I couldnt find any reference to S&W ammo.
Edit: Did another search and found a little info. S&W was first to come up with the Nyclad ammo.
I remember they had a number of loads. I have some 357 Magnum ammo loaded with a 158 gr lead SWC.
Edit: Did another search and found a little info. S&W was first to come up with the Nyclad ammo.
I remember they had a number of loads. I have some 357 Magnum ammo loaded with a 158 gr lead SWC.
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DWalt
Member
This has been one of the more interesting ammunition discussions here for a while. But I am curious about the significance of the specific type of ammunition used by Ernst to kill Lubcke.
S&W partnered with Fiocchi when they were in the ammo business........
OP
Daimler1989
Member
Hi all,
to clarify this quite legitimate by DWalt question:
The current trial is against a man who allegedly sold Ernst the murder weapon. The only evidence is that Ernst claims he bought the weapons from the defendant. There are no other traces leading to the Rossi Model 27 or the ammunition used that say anything about its origin. However, Ernst has made false statements about the murder and others involved several times in the past, so the court would need other evidence for a conviction. It could be possible that Ernst got the Rossi through a Neo-Nazi network, because many years ago a group to which Ernst had connections was busted, which was armed with 38 Rossis. And that he wants to conceal the true origin of the weapon.
The issue here is not so much whether Lübcke was killed with the Winchester .38 Special 158 gr. JSP flat +P cartridge, as that has been proven. The question is whether the ammunition came from the defendant, as Ernst has also claimed. If it was indeed Q4282 38 Special 158 gr. J.S.P.(+P), as .455_Hunter mentions, and it was offered only to military and law enforcement, the question would be how it came to Germany. In Germany, weapons in .38 Special are used by police units as special armament, but according to the specifications at the possible time of manufacture (1980s), it had to be full metal jacket ammunition. Deformable bullets have only been allowed to be used by German police forces since the late 1990s.
My initial question was also whether there was this cartridge and about when, because I have found in my research so far only HP or SWC HP in 38 Special +P. The bottom stamp of the cases is definitely Winchester +P. The lead on the exposed soft point was tarnished white according to the expert, who found four live cartridges and one empty case in the cylinder of the Rossi. The murder bullet was definitely identical to the four others.
regards
Ulrich
.455_Hunter
Member
It's important to note that while "Q" loads usually have origins in law enforcement or military contracts, there is absolutely no blanket rule restricting sale or possession by civilians, and many of them are promoted for civilian sale.
While I was in the military when I purchased the two boxes of the load being discussed here, I did so purely in a civilian manner at a gun shop or local gun shop.
crstrode
Member
Too late you already did. Leopards cannot, however, change their spots.
However, to address the original question, the ammunition could be over 50 years old, or brand-new. I personally have examples just like the ones you describe that I have purchased new decades ago, new within the past couple of years, and others that I have reloaded myself very recently.
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DWalt
Member
If the exposed lead of the bullet nose is indeed corroded, that does not happen quickly. The surface coating that forms on metallic lead is lead carbonate, which results from exposure to acetic acid vapor and carbon dioxide in air. I don't know the kinetics of that reaction, but under normal conditions, I wouldn't be surprised that it would take 20 years at least to become evident, and maybe far longer. That is something that a forensic chemist should address.
As far as sales to the public of ammo loaded for police or the military, there are over runs and even runs that do "not" meet specs. These are often sold thru civilian outlets. Jobbers and distributers will sell any surplus to any and all outlets as a dollar is a dollar........
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A certain law enforcement agency was issued 357 revolvers in the early 1980s and also issued standard duty ammo to take home and practice with on their own time. When the agency changed to 9mm, the 38 ammo issued was kept by the officers, and one of them accumulated quite a bit of it and gave his brother a bunch of it.
That's another way LE-only ammo gets around.
DWalt
Member
"Law Enforcement Use Only" is merely advisory, not statutory law.
This is so. But in the cases I mentioned, the ammo was issued by the agency and ended up in private hands. So the question of ownership can be raised if someone wants to nit-pick. Does the agency own it or did the officer?
Ruger Nut
US Veteran
STORMINORMAN
Member
It would appear the individual on trial is being tried for the illegal sale of a stolen weapon: what does that have to do with the use of the weapon or ammunition used in the actual shooting?
Would he not be tried if the gun was discovered and confiscated at a shooting range?
Is the point of this to ascertain if Ernst is actually telling the truth?
Would he not be tried if the gun was discovered and confiscated at a shooting range?
Is the point of this to ascertain if Ernst is actually telling the truth?
OP
Daimler1989
Member
quite complicated matter of German laws. Ernst killed Lübke with an illegal weapon that he said he had bought from the defendant. The prosecutor believes that by selling the weapon to Ernst, the defendant was guilty of involuntary manslaughter because he knew that Ernst had been in prison before for acts of political violence and one had to expect that Ernst might kill someone with this weapon.
Ammo: The police found illegal ammunition on the defendant, but none of the caliber .38 Special. If they had found the said .38 Special +P, this would possibly be an indication that the man also had the weapon that Ernst later used and sold both to him. Now there is no evidence at all of the defendant's guilt except what Ernst says. And not everyone believes that.
Finding out when the Winchester .38 Special +P JSP flat was possibly manufactured is mainly my personal interest.
regards
Ulrich
STORMINORMAN
Member
If Ernst had been sold stolen gasoline he used to manufacture napalm used in an explosive device, would the prosecutor be looking to charge the seller of the gasoline with a similar charge...?
Or, is this strictly a firearm-related frenzy? A lot of "mights" in the prosecutor's theory, at least as far as typical US jurisprudence is concerned...
Cheers!
P.S. I do appreciate your further explanation.
Or, is this strictly a firearm-related frenzy? A lot of "mights" in the prosecutor's theory, at least as far as typical US jurisprudence is concerned...
Cheers!
P.S. I do appreciate your further explanation.
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My agency issued Speer 125 gr. JSP .38 Spl. +P in the mid-80s. They were flat points. The next year we got S&W 125 gr +P jacketed RN. Then we got a chief who knew the Hague Convention didn't apply to cops. There was a lot of media flak about "deadly hollowpoints" at that time and I'm sure the ammo companies weren't doing special runs for a 100 officer PD.
.455_Hunter
Member
In one of Evan Marshall's 90's era books, he showed an example of such a load (Federal, I believe) that did exhibit good expansion in an LE shooting.
