Mod 41 Eject fails - an observation on ammo variability

[Larks]

I thought this might be an interesting vid’ to offer presenting my observations on how the variability in ammo’ casing diameter seems to contribute to ejection failures with the S&W Model 41.

I’m not suggesting that this is the sole cause and solution for ejection failures but I do think it makes a significant contribution to them and I’d be interested in others thoughts and experiences.

(If it needs to be stated: Of course all firearms are cleared and made safe prior to filming and no ammunition is placed in an operable firearm in this setting ).

My Movie 1 - YouTube

 

[Model52guy]

Very good video. Thanks Larks!! Had the same issues with one of my M41 barrels. I have 8 M41’s and 6 extra barrels. The only one with a problem has been a 5-1/2” heavy barrel. I measured the breach with some index pins and It measured to spec. I “polished” the breach with some 600 grit emery cloth on a 3/16” split rod. Improved the extraction problem. Since that time I have ordered and received a finish reamer. Haven’t tried that yet but I also have a K22 that have tight cylinders that may need that treatment.

 

[armorer951]

You mentioned installing an "aftermarket ejector". Are you sure you don't mean "extractor"? I'm not aware of an aftermarket ejector for the model 41.

In my experience, which is limited, model 41 failures can usually be traced back to dirt and firing debris, excessive lubricant/wax applied by some of the ammo manufacturers, extractor and extractor spring failures, magazine problems, and recoil spring issues.

I'm sure there are many other parts of this particular pistol's system I don't fully understand yet, but the list above have been problems I've observed over the years in the modle 41.

 

[Larks]

You mentioned installing an "aftermarket ejector". Are you sure you don't mean "extractor"? I'm not aware of an aftermarket ejector for the model 41.

In my experience, which is limited, model 41 failures can usually be traced back to dirt and firing debris, excessive lubricant/wax applied by some of the ammo manufacturer, extractor and extractor spring failures, magazine problems, and recoil spring issues.

I'm sure there are many other parts of this particular pistol's system I don't fully understand yet, but the list above have been problems I've observed over the years in the modle 41.

Thanks for the correction - I did actually mean extractor (put it down to ARD - Age Related Distractions/Decline/Degradation/Defects/etc - you may have also noticed that I said "Blacksmith" instead of “gunsmith”). Specifically I used one of the Volquartsen extractors Exact Edge Extractor for S&W Model 41 | Volquartsen Firearms

And as you say - all of the above can contribute to ejection failures and other failures to feed etc and one of the most common and easily remedied causes that I see on any firearm, particularly with new shooters, is over oiling firearms after cleaning.

I can only speak for my own experience with my particular Mod 41 and in my case over the years I have done the best that I can to rule out all of these things that you mentioned as causal factors with my specific Mod41.

As I said, I don’t suggest this ammo variability issue and fine breech tolerance to be the sole solution to anyones problems, but I do think it is a big contributor.

 

[Larks]

Very good video. Thanks Larks!! Had the same issues with one of my M41 barrels. I have 8 M41’s and 6 extra barrels. The only one with a problem has been a 5-1/2” heavy barrel. I measured the breach with some index pins and It measured to spec. I “polished” the breach with some 600 grit emery cloth on a 3/16” split rod. Improved the extraction problem. Since that time I have ordered and received a finish reamer. Haven’t tried that yet but I also have a K22 that have tight cylinders that may need that treatment.

Thanks for the kind comment. I’d be really interested to see and hear how you go with the barrel finish reamer and what sort of difference it might make.

I have two barrels and both seem to be identical in size and tolerances and present the same ejection failure problems and behaviour with the ammo “drop” test. I have spoken to my local gunsmith about the fine tolerance of the breech and he has offered to ream the barrel, as he has done on a number of Mod 22a’s.

I’ve held off on doing that so far, preferring to try the polishing, but after doing this vid’, reading your post and thinking about it more as I type I think that may be the next step with at least one of my barrels.

I’ll report back on any changes after I’ve had it done.

 

[6string]

Rim diameter may be a symptomatic or contributing factor, but the real culprit is S&W's ejector design.
The M41 is based largely on the post-war Hämmerli-Walther Olympia, so much so that the magazines are interchangeable with slight modifications.
Walther designed the Olympia with a dedicated ejector beautifully machined out of a substantial piece of forged steel. S&W chose to make a combination slide stop/ejector fabricated from sheet metal. It wiggles around too much, since it has to fit loose enough to pivot up and down to fulfill its slide stop function.
It sits too low relative to the chamber, and combined with the rear sight barrel extension (another change from Walther) it almost appears intended to cause the classic M41 stovepipe.
S&W attempted to rectify the issue by moving the ejector notch forward so the case gets an earlier "kick", but the problem still somewhat persists.

 

[armorer951]

If reaming the mod 41 chamber is one of your possible solutions, be sure you have the correct finish reamer. I don't believe the reamers for the 22 rimfire revolver chamber, and the semi-auto pistol chamber are the same, or "interchangeable".

(I thought I heard in the video that you were planning on possibly reaming the chambers in a 22 lr revolver cylinder also, if not, disregard this info)

 

[series guy]

Before modifying your gun you could try a little lube on your ammo. I noticed that the high end brands like SK, Ely, and Lapua have a greasy feeling to them. I spritz a little Ballistol on my CCI SV and have not had a failure to eject since.

 

[Exaviator]

A lot of problems with ammo and ejection can be traced back to microscopic carbon and lead fowling in the chamber. Giving it a good cleaning every few hundred rounds can make a world of difference.



Carbon deposits.

Lead Deposits.

 

[Larks]

Rim diameter may be a symptomatic or contributing factor, but the real culprit is S&W's ejector design.
The M41 is based largely on the post-war Hämmerli-Walther Olympia, so much so that the magazines are interchangeable with slight modifications.
Walther designed the Olympia with a dedicated ejector beautifully machined out of a substantial piece of forged steel. S&W chose to make a combination slide stop/ejector fabricated from sheet metal. It wiggles around too much, since it has to fit loose enough to pivot up and down to fulfill its slide stop function.
It sits too low relative to the chamber, and combined with the rear sight barrel extension (another change from Walther) it almost appears intended to cause the classic M41 stovepipe.
S&W attempted to rectify the issue by moving the ejector notch forward so the case gets an earlier "kick", but the problem still somewhat persists.

I’d not heard about the ejector design as a factor before but I’d be interested to read more if you can point me to a source.

It seems odd that S&W could produce such an otherwise nice pistol - a pleasure to handle, a delight to shoot and incredibly accurate - yet take such shortcuts with things like the extractor and the safety lever arrangement.

Is it just a fluke that this gun became so popular?

 

[Larks]

Before modifying your gun you could try a little lube on your ammo. I noticed that the high end brands like SK, Ely, and Lapua have a greasy feeling to them. I spritz a little Ballistol on my CCI SV and have not had a failure to eject since.

A lot of problems with ammo and ejection can be traced back to microscopic carbon and lead fowling in the chamber. Giving it a good cleaning every few hundred rounds can make a world of difference.

Not wanting to appear ungrateful for the responses but in the video I did make it pretty clear that this was specifically about fine breech tolerance and variabilities in the brass, as an additional consideration to all that you mention.
I also pointed out that I keep this firearm spotlessly clean (specifically because of the ongoing ejection problems - not after every couple of hundred rounds but after every shoot, so after no more really than 100 rounds) and that I lightly lube my brass in a silicon cloth with a few drops of oil on it.

 

[Larks]

If reaming the mod 41 chamber is one of your possible solutions, be sure you have the correct finish reamer. I don't believe the reamers for the 22 rimfire revolver chamber, and the semi-auto pistol chamber are the same, or "interchangeable".

(I thought I heard in the video that you were planning on possibly reaming the chambers in a 22 lr revolver cylinder also, if not, disregard this info)

Not mentioned in the vid’, but any reaming I’ll get done by my gunsmith.

 

[MJK-MOD-547]

When I clean my 41 after a range trip I get it ready for the next trip.

I like to index the .22 ammo I'm going to shoot.
I measure the casings. (and they do vary)
I separate the rounds that may have problems. Those rounds can be used in a different .22.

I also do not let oil near the bolt face. Dry lube on the bolt face. It lubricates the extractor and firing pin springs and keeps debris from sticking on the bolt face.
The extractor's movement can be limited with debris in the spring.
Anyway it works for me.

 

[Troystat]

41's sure are strange beasts. Some will shoot anything and some are really fussy. My early 70's model will shoot anything and the only time I have an issue is the occasional stove pipe on the first round fired after I clean it. I do think a properly reamed chamber, good extractor and a new spring makes a difference. Good luck with yours.

 

[chief38]

If after a thorough cleaning you are still experiencing problems, install a Volquartzen extractor - under $15 bucks and straight forward to do. Other than simple cleaning this is about the best thing you can do to a M41. It usually greatly improves or eliminates the problem.

CCI standard velocity ammo is usually what M41’s like to eat. It’s rare they don’t like that ammo.

 

[series guy]

Larks like you I was pretty frustrated by the random bouts of a failure to eject the fired case. I cleaned the barrel and chamber many times and also went with the Volquartson extractor. Spraying some Ballistol directly on my ammo completely transformed my gun. As a test I had a fellow club member try my ammo in his two Model 41s. Exact same result. If you keep rejecting any changes to your habits you will never find a solution to your issue.

 

[Rick H.]

Just as a side note, as we all should know, Volquartson extractors can eliminate many problems associated with the M41 pistol. Volquartson stopped making their M41 extractors for a short time and really had no intention of making them again. I contacted the company when I needed one and they didn't have them on their website. I was told they "might" make a special run of them if there was enough interest. Apparently enough interest was generated and a couple of months ago they did indeed make a run of these extractors and they now have them on their company website again. They run about $13.00 a piece, so I bought a few of them.

I have no connection with the company what-so-ever, but I do know how well Volquartson extractors work. If you own a M41, or think you may own one in the future, you may want to buy one or two of these extractors for potential use while they are available. There is no telling when they may go out of stock again and if Volquartsen will continue to make them. I certainly would not want to be without one in my stash of parts.

Rick H.

 

[cmj8591]

Well done video. I've shot bullseye since 1975. A lot of it was done with model 41's. Here's my observations, for what they're worth. Most of my problems with functioning could be directly linked to variations on the amount of wax on the bullet. That is the largest variable that I have found with 22 ammo. If you look, you can see that there is variation within the same box of ammo sometimes. I've even seen CCI's lube down onto the brass. When I was shooting in a big match, I would cough up the extra cash and buy Green Tag or Eley or some high end match ammo where the quality control insures uniformity from round to round. I had very, very few problems with dedicated match ammo in my 41's. As far as polishing the chamber, match barrels are, or should be, chambered to tighter tolerances. It's one of the reasons you pay more for a match gun. I never dissuade anyone from working on their guns but the problem with running a polisher into a chamber is you really don't have a way to insure uniformity. That's why a chamber finishing reamer is a better option in my opinion. Even with that, there is a sweet spot where if you exceed it, your accuracy is going to decline. If you do it on a field gun to help with reliability, it's no big thing and you may never notice any difference with accuracy. On a match gun, it's easy to ruin the barrel when you start removing metal. I've also had good luck changing out the recoil spring for a lighter after market spring. I think it's better to treat the 41 for what it is, a refined match gun. With that, you accept some reliability issues with some ammo. Find what it shoots best and stick with it. If you want a gun that eats everything, buy a good field gun. Your video is very good. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Larks]

If you keep rejecting any changes to your habits you will never find a solution to your issue.

That’s a rather interesting remark given what I have posted here - what on earth made you say that?

 

[chief38]

At the urging by a bunch of Forum members (myself included), Scott Volquartzen finally gave in and agreed to do a special run if the M41 Extractors. I purchase a modest bunch as did many of my fellow M41 owners.

Probably the single best upgrade one can do on a M41.

NOTE: Too bad S&W can't see their way clear to use Volquartzen Extractors as Factory original parts! For what they charge for a M41 it would make perfect sense and make a big difference in the customers experience IMO.