Heating Options for the Great White North

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yaktamer

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I'm considering buying a modular cabin for a lot in Montana. Cabin is well- constructed and would be well-insulated. Plan is to use the place for summers for the next few years, but once I retire I might move up fulltime.

Builder includes electric baseboard heat standard, with Rinnai direct vent gas (propane in my case) wall heater as an option. Quite some time since I've lived in a cold climate, but at one point rented a place with electirc baseboards. Found them to be both inadequate to generate sufficient heat and very inefficient to operate cost-wise. I have had experience with forced air gas furnaces, but not with anything like the Rinnai unit. Looking for thoughts from folks that do. Should probably note that I'd also likely supplement with a wood or pellet stove.
 
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"Modular" conjures up images of uh, house trailers. You might want to better explain what you're referring to. I was working in Minnesota one fall and noticed a large trailer park. When I asked someone how they kept from freezing to death, the answer was "snow". They piled it on the sides and roof to act as additional insulation.

One major problem with pellet stoves is that many/most are fed by an electrical mechanism. No electric, no fuel feed to the stove. Are you planning on your own electrical plant?

Perhaps some native Montanans can offer more accurate advice.
 
Built a few houses in the mountains in Colorado that had baseboard electric heat and the utility bills were scary.I'd get the wall unit (probably) but research it first. I'd also add a traditional wood burning stove sized to the square footage of the cabin and stockpile lots and lots of wood.
 
arjay said:
Built a few houses in the mountains in Colorado that had baseboard electric heat and the utility bills were scary.I'd get the wall unit (probably) but research it first. I'd also add a traditional wood burning stove sized to the square footage of the cabin and stockpile lots and lots of wood.
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Yup. I'm wondering if I shouldn't use the wood stove as the primary heat source and the baseboards as backup/supplement. I read a review of the wall unit that claimed the space they take up was an issue. I'll need to check the dimensions of the model that's optioned.
 
I have 3 friends in the neighborhood with Rinnai wall heaters running on propane. They rave about them, both as to efficiency and efficacy. We are at 10,000'. This 42-year-old cabin I'm in has 110 v. baseboards and a beast of a wood stove. I can't afford the baseboards except as a floor for the inside temperature after the fire burns down. I hear 220 v. is more efficient, but if I were doing it today, the Rinnia would get the call
 
A friend of mine told me that a lady up there, that had a small, well insulated house, will low income, heater her house with just

eight candles.

I did not ask if she wore, long john's.
 
Electric baseboard, as others have mentioned is EXPENSIVE to operate, unless the cabin is REALLY well insulated, and I mean "way beyond code", like 8" deep walls with a good thermal break (1 1/2") over the studs, triple-glazed windows, and R-60 in the roof! And equally well-insulated floors. A company up here in BC, Pacific Homes, does prefab kits of all sizes with their "Smart Wall" system, which would be ideal for a really cold climate. My small house is from them and that wall system is good. Mine is 6" as I'm in near-coastal BC, but they do them in 6", 8" and 10".

And when the power goes out, you need a pretty substantial generator to run electric baseboard.

Pellet stoves are good; I have one here along with my condensing gas boiler and HW baseboards, and it works well. More efficient than a wood stove but yes, it does require 110v to run the fans (about 70-80W) as well as the igniter, which draws 400W when lighting the pellets. You do have to worry about having a good supply of pellets, though. (BTW, those "igniters" are a ripoff when you have to replace one, like $>100.00 They're just industry-standard cartridge heaters which cost the mfr. about $25.00. I don't use mine any more. Disconnected it and use a propane torch!)

A good wood stove is hard to beat. I don't have experience with the Rinnai boilers & heaters but have heard good things about them. I'd think that that would be the way to heat it when you're not there, if you have a good propane supply.

The cost of heating the place will be pretty much dependent on how well insulated it is, (and how good the windows are) no matter what you use for heat.
 
I heated a 2 story 1850 Sq. Ft. 100-year-old and drafty farmhouse with a free-standing Lilly Fireplace model wood stove. I could stay warm through Ohio's worst storms as long as I could feed the stove every 4 to 8 hours and had up to 14 cords a year! I generated about 2 cubic yards of ash per typical winter (the ash has to be removed daily) and there was constantly a layer of dust (ash) in the house!

The positives are it is the most wonderful form of heat you could feel! Buying the wood my winter costs were around $800, which is minimal! And the first 20 years I had slaves, I mean children, that took care of the chores.

I had a few major power outages, one lasted 4, and another lasted 11.5 winter days. The woodstove allowed us minimal heat and cooking (campfire style) but we didn't have to abandon ship!

At 58 years of age my wife and I were tired of that lifestyle and moved to a condo with gas heat. We do like staying in the cousin's log cabin for a weekend, but at age 58, I was done with wood for the 5-month long heating season.

I hope this gives you some background on that lifestyle as you get older.

Ivan
 
I can appreciate the other folks' experiences, but...

I'm 70. I've lived full time in my 1,200 sq. foot log cabin -- 800 sq. foot main floor and a 400 sq. foot loft (office) at 7,800' for six years. Windows and doors are Anderson casements and awnings (none of the double-hung garbage) -- the real key to comfort.

I go through up to six cords of wood a year in my Blaze King Princess wood stove. Coldest I've seen is -40 -- no problem.

I will not change anything until I can't go get my own wood. The change will be to a much less "inhabitable" place -- no propane or pellets or whatever else.

Power reliability here is the best I've known in my life. Our long power outage was eight hours. Not every place can make that claim so plan accordingly.

High power bill last winter was $96 for a terrific ceiling fan, water heater (not on-demand), washer, dryer, lights, stereo, computer, and dish washer. Yes, I know -- I planned well.

Pre-fab house? Yuk!
 
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Almost 60 years ago my uncle, a big shot at US Steel at the time, built a new house on a hill in Ellwood City PA. State of the art at the time, it had baseboard heat throughout the 3,000 sq ft with a 2 ft cube furnace that heated the hot water with nat gas. Toasty warm and very energy efficient. The only downside was the noise when the hot water started circulating through the previously cooling pipes. I'm sure they are vastly improved today. Joe
 
I love vented Rennai heaters, make sure that yours is vented not unvented. I have one in my basement as a supplemental heater. @ 38,000 btu it will keep the whole house temperate if the main furnace failed in most temperatures. A friend had 8 funeral homes that he owned. He had Rennai's in all of them. The newer ones have an electronic thermostat and are slightly busier than the old style. I have a $100 battery jumper, compressor and 110 V packaged and sold at Costco and many other places as an emergency battery. I have run the Rennai for 24 hours on that battery, heat and fan. When I leave for a few days we plug the cord for the Rennai into the charger and the charger into the wall.

Rennai also makes a boiler that has a hot water option for domestic water. They are as easy to get parts for as any other heater.

What area is your lot in? That can make a world of difference. The Yaak gets a lot of snow but is surprising temperate when compared to the Big Hole. Buy your own LP tank, do not rent one. Then you can buy from anyone. You will want an auto fill plan if you are gone winters.
 
pharmer said:
...The only downside was the noise when the hot water started circulating through the previously cooling pipes. I'm sure they are vastly improved today. Joe
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My HW baseboards are silent. The HW lines are all PEX, rather than metal, and don't suffer from that extreme expansion and contraction. The baseboards also have some sort of expansion joints that deal with the copper tubes flexing when heated and cooled.

The only problem I have with mine is the installers had no clue about using HW baseboards with a condensing gas boiler. They put in standard baseboards that do indeed heat the house just fine when the boiler is set to about 165º, but the return temperature of the water when it comes back to the heat exchanger, is too warm to ensure that the "condensing" function works optimally, so I'm not getting the full 94% efficiency out of it. (More lke 84-85%) Water needs to come back below 130ºF for this to happen, preferably quite a bit lower. They should have put in higher-output baseboards which would "lose" more heat, which would allow me to run the boiler at around 150º.

I am actually thinking of getting my plumber to replace 6 baseboards with higher-output ones. Almost certainly won't save me money in the long run, but it would reduce the amount of gas I use, which is what we are being encouraged to do these days. The price of nat. gas keeps going up, plus we have an unpopular carbon tax up here which adds to the monthly bill. Plus, I'd like the boiler to run at optimal efficiency.

Yesterday I took the covers off the baseboards and vacuumed off the fins in prep for winter, and also measured the length of each element so I can give my plumber the specs.
 
If you think there is the slightest chance of living there full time I would suggest you look into a small high efficiency furnace.
Looking at the website of the Rinnai heater the best I see is an 82 percent.
Electric baseboard will be expensive to operate and most likely require a fairly good size generator in the event of power outages. The small furnace would require less power to operate.

What is the size of the "cabin" you are thinking of?
 
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mtgianni said:
...I have a $100 battery jumper, compressor and 110 V packaged and sold at Costco and many other places as an emergency battery. I have run the Rennai for 24 hours on that battery, heat and fan. When I leave for a few days we plug the cord for the Rennai into the charger and the charger into the wall. ...
Click to expand...
This is one advantage of such heaters, as opposed to various geothermal/heat pumps. In a power outage, they don't need much power. Even a small heat pump needs around 1200W, whereas my Viessmann condensing boiler and the small circ. pumps only draw about 1/3 of that. I have a whole-house battery backup whcih will run the basics for about 6 hours, plus an old 6kW Onan prime power diesel genny, which will recharge the batteries and run the house in a longer outage. Saved my bacon several times, esp. when we were w/o power for 84 hours after an ice storm a few years ago. The neighbours came over to have a shower :)
 
Research ductless cold climate heat pumps, and ignore anyone that tells you a heat pump won't work in the Nord. They are all the rage here, cheap to run and very efficient, good down to zero outside temps. And as an added bonus, AC in the summer. If it were me, I would go with the heat pumps and the Rinai for a backup during the most bitter cold weather when the heat pump works hard to keep up.
 
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