K-22 First Model Double Action Not Working

[PeteC]

I recently acquired a K-22 Outdoorsman, First Model, 1931~32 vintage, which does not work in double action. I would appreciate some advice on what might be done to fix the problem.

In single action it works fine. Hammer can be cocked manually, and the SA trigger works fine. In double action, pulling the trigger only advances the cylinder, and the hammer moves slightly. The gun does not look abused or modified in any way, and I did not find anything unexpected when I removed the sideplate.

Pics below show the action with cylinder and sideplate removed, hammer down, and hammer cocked. I also made a couple short videos showing what happens when the trigger is pulled in double action. It looks like the trigger barely bumps the sear. The sear is not being engaged by the hammer, and falls back. Cylinder advances, but the hammer is not cocked, even though it CAN be cocked manually.

I made a couple short videos. The first one shows a three single action pulls and three double action pulls. The second one shows only the double action pull.

K-22 Outdoorsman SA and DA - YouTube

K-22 Outdoorsman DA - YouTube

My original thread about the gun with more pics:

K-22 Pre-war & SCSW Description - Updated

 

[Protocall_Design]

The double action sear is not far enough forward to catch on the top part of the trigger, so it just slides off the ramp. It looks like someone modified the trigger in the wrong way. I'm thinking an unaltered, different trigger would probably fix the problem.

 

[PeteC]

You think it is the trigger, not the sear? If I push the sear forward hard enough, I can get double action to work some of the time.

 

[Peak53]

What about the spring under the sear? They can break or be misaligned.

 

[2152hq]

I'd take the DA sear out of the hammer and clean it and the slot it sits in.
Just to make sure it is pivoting as far forward as it possibly can.

If you can push the sear forward a little, I suspect there is some more room in there for that movement yet. Maybe just blocked by old lube, dirt, etc.

Also check the tiny spring that powers it and make sure it hasn't been damaged or altered.

 

[Protocall_Design]

The trigger does not look right to me. The top flat part of the trigger should extend further back so it's under the DA sear on the hammer at the beginning.

You can file the top back surface of the DA sear to let it extend more forward, but then there is the chance it will catch on the trigger as the hammer goes forward when firing in single action. The DA sear is probably where it should be (after cleaning). Personally, I would not alter it.

 

[PeteC]

What about the spring under the sear? They can break or be misaligned.

I thought that might be it too, hoping for a simple fix, but no. The spring seems to be doing its job. By that I mean that it pushes the sear as far forward as the notch at the top of the sear allows it to go.

In the last pic, inside the white circle, one can see that the tip of the double-action sear is on the beveled edge of the trigger. When the trigger is pulled, the tip of the sear slips down that bevel, and the trigger does not engage the sear. The trigger just pushes the sear back against the sear spring, and moves past it. The tip of the sear is either not far enough forward, or the bevel end of the trigger is not far enough back.

Some part is modified or worn, or someone stoned the wrong part, or something like that. @Protocall_Design is saying someone removed too much material from the trigger. Another person has suggested that the sear notch could be modified slightly so the sear tip reaches farther forward, and engages the trigger correctly.

All I have ever done is disassemble, clean, lube, reassemble. My gunsmith has retired, and I don't have any experience fitting new parts, or even know what tools I would need.

I can simulate correct double action by starting to cock the hammer, while pulling the trigger. If I start the hammer on its way, the DA pull works as it should. I may try to make another video showing that... on the other hand, that might require finding someone under 16 to help,

 

[PeteC]

I'd take the DA sear out of the hammer and clean it and the slot it sits in.
Just to make sure it is pivoting as far forward as it possibly can.

If you can push the sear forward a little, I suspect there is some more room in there for that movement yet. Maybe just blocked by old lube, dirt, etc.

Also check the tiny spring that powers it and make sure it hasn't been damaged or altered.

I have not taken it out and checked the spring, but I did verify the sear goes forward to the limit allowed by the notch on the sear.

 

[PeteC]

The trigger does not look right to me. The top flat part of the trigger should extend further back so it's under the DA sear on the hammer at the beginning.

You can file the top back surface of the DA sear to let it extend more forward, but then there is the chance it will catch on the trigger as the hammer goes forward when firing in single action. The DA sear is probably where it should be (after cleaning). Personally, I would not alter it.

Would a replacement trigger just drop in? Fitting a trigger may be beyond my ability, or tools.

I could order a trigger and a sear, if I can find the correct parts. That way I can always put the gun back the way it is now. The spring seems to be out of stock. Any idea what kind of file would be used to file the sear?

 

[Protocall_Design]

I would get another trigger. It would likely just be trading parts. I think the hammer and DA sear is fine.

I have a trigger that might work. You can PM me your shipping address if you want. If it works, you can pay me. If not, send it back. I would need some measurements of yours to get the right size.

 

[AJ]

Curious as to what the fix will finally be.

 

[chief38]

Who knows what and why previous owners do things the way they do. Maybe he wanted a SA only revolver Not the right way, but it is obviously SA only. As Protocoll Design states, parts are still available and should fix your issue. If at all possible, try and get virgin parts or at least parts that have had no modifications to them. Always ask!

I have in the past had the displeasure of receiving parts from ebay that were botched up and no longer worked as designed. The seller failed to disclose that they were modified and there is only so much one can see on a picture - especially a "not so good one". That was many years ago and I have since learned my lesson and know what questions to ask the seller first. If you have a local gun show near you try getting parts there - you can see, handle the and ask any question you night have before buying.

 

[PeteC]

Who knows what and why previous owners do things the way they do. Maybe he wanted a SA only revolver Not the right way, but it is obviously SA only. As Protocoll Design states, parts are still available and should fix your issue. If at all possible, try and get virgin parts or at least parts that have had no modifications to them. Always ask!

I have in the past had the displeasure of receiving parts from ebay that were botched up and no longer worked as designed. The seller failed to disclose that they were modified and there is only so much one can see on a picture - especially a "not so good one". That was many years ago and I have since learned my lesson and know what questions to ask the seller first. If you have a local gun show near you try getting parts there - you can see, handle the and ask any question you night have before buying.

Reselling badly modified parts (and guns) seems to happen a lot. I had that experience here six months ago.
It would be nice to put this gun right. It is an early K-22 First Model, from about 1931~32, with original numbered parts and grips, a little worn, but most of the original finish is intact. Too bad about the trigger, it has a nice case-hardened color and no corrosion anywhere...

 

[AJ]

Reselling badly modified parts (and guns) seems to happen a lot. I had that experience here six months ago.
It would be nice to put this gun right. It is an early K-22 First Model, from about 1931~32, with original numbered parts and grips, a little worn, but most of the original finish is intact. Too bad about the trigger, it has a nice case-hardened color and no corrosion anywhere...

Don't toss the trigger. It should stay with the gun.

 

[Alk8944]

Like Protocol Design said, the DA Sear isn't letting out far enough. It may be too long and is catching on the trigger bevel, or the stop at the top needs to be adjusted. Just be very careful to not cut either area of the DA sear too much. We have both been doing this for a long time!

 

[muzzlestuffer2012]

Need to take it apart clean and hone everything check all surfaces for any unusual wear should work if you don't need any parts

 

[muzzlestuffer2012]

I recently acquired a K-22 Outdoorsman, First Model, 1931~32 vintage, which does not work in double action. I would appreciate some advice on what might be done to fix the problem.

In single action it works fine. Hammer can be cocked manually, and the SA trigger works fine. In double action, pulling the trigger only advances the cylinder, and the hammer moves slightly. The gun does not look abused or modified in any way, and I did not find anything unexpected when I removed the sideplate.

Pics below show the action with cylinder and sideplate removed, hammer down, and hammer cocked. I also made a couple short videos showing what happens when the trigger is pulled in double action. It looks like the trigger barely bumps the sear. The sear is not being engaged by the hammer, and falls back. Cylinder advances, but the hammer is not cocked, even though it CAN be cocked manually.

I made a couple short videos. The first one shows a three single action pulls and three double action pulls. The second one shows only the double action pull.

K-22 Outdoorsman SA and DA - YouTube

K-22 Outdoorsman DA - YouTube

My original thread about the gun with more pics:

K-22 Pre-war & SCSW Description - Updated

If you live near me in Arizona I can go thru it for you should be pretty simple.

 

[PeteC]

If you live near me in Arizona I can go thru it for you should be pretty simple.

I wish, but no, I do not. A visit now and then to hike, armed only with sunscreen.

 

[muzzlestuffer2012]

I wish, but no, I do not. A visit now and then to hike, armed only with sunscreen.

Well i'm here if you need ? BTW why don't you carry it's a crazy world out there !!

 

[dsf]

Like Protocol Design said, the DA Sear isn't letting out far enough. It may be too long and is catching on the trigger bevel, or the stop at the top needs to be adjusted. Just be very careful to not cut either area of the DA sear too much. We have both been doing this for a long time!

Viewing the video, I suspect the rebound unit.

One of the "tricks" to getting a smoother reset, especially if a lighter than factory trigger reset spring is installed, is to smooth out the top of the rebound unit. May be that when the unit resets & camming the hammer back into reset mode the boss on the top of the unit isn't sufficiently proud. Leaves the hammer a bit far forward and the DA angled too far to the rear.

Or, could be plain old wear causing the entire hammer to not be cammed up as much as it ought to be. I'd check that part on the hammer to ensure it hasn't also worn.

My suggestion is to get a new rebound unit and factory strength trigger reset spring. I'd also clean the heck out of the top back flat of the DA sear and even give it a slight dressing down with a fine stone or even 600 grit graphite paper.

BTW, careful dropping the hammer with the sideplate exposed. Might "kiss" the exposed edge of the frame on its way down.