Erich
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Finest kind. Mas is a blessing to us.
Do We Have a Better Spokesman for CC & SD Than Massad Ayoob?
- Thread starter Jack Flash
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New Yorker here
I might have mention this years ago, not sure.
Back in the mid 1970s I had a incident at my house. It was about 2AM and I heard a lot of yelling and pounding on the downstairs door. Grabbed my revolver and being a bit dumb went downstairs to the basement door. Turned on the outside light and there were 3 boys & 2 girls all about 18 or so. I gently opened the inside door and asked "what the hell is going on". They told me their vechicle was stuck behind the school next door and as I had a 4X4 truck would I pull them out of the mud.
No way was I going out with those drunk possibly drugged up people. Told them quite clearly my truck was broke but one and I MEAN ONE could come in the house and use the phone. Unlocked the door and all walked towards the door. My .38 which I had behind my back was brought up into a present arms position pointed at the ceiling. They saw it and beet a hasty screaming departure.
Got on the phone and called the PD told them quickly the whole story and repeated I never pointed it at them I wanted that reordered in case of problems. Two cars showed up one with a sergeant and a newbie young officer. Told all 3 cops what happened and you could then hear a car gunning its engine back of the school. They went back there and after doing some flashlight work arrested the kids for breaking in the school.
The sergeant and new cop came back to the house to get my info and the sergeant let the new kid do the interview. Asked me about the gun which I had unloaded, cylinder open on a table. The sergeant said dam thats a little model 60, listened to them kids I thought you had a Gatling gun or something huge
The kid went back to the interview and asked me do you always answer the door with a pistol in your hand and I replied no at 2AM if I had a shot gun handy I would have had that. The sergeant had a hard time keeping a straight face. He then told me you did nothing wrong gun wise you are not in any trouble. They never even asked me about a pistol permit, I assume the person that answered the phone checked that!
Yes I was nervous as this is NYS but the sergeant was right!
I might have mention this years ago, not sure.
Back in the mid 1970s I had a incident at my house. It was about 2AM and I heard a lot of yelling and pounding on the downstairs door. Grabbed my revolver and being a bit dumb went downstairs to the basement door. Turned on the outside light and there were 3 boys & 2 girls all about 18 or so. I gently opened the inside door and asked "what the hell is going on". They told me their vechicle was stuck behind the school next door and as I had a 4X4 truck would I pull them out of the mud.
No way was I going out with those drunk possibly drugged up people. Told them quite clearly my truck was broke but one and I MEAN ONE could come in the house and use the phone. Unlocked the door and all walked towards the door. My .38 which I had behind my back was brought up into a present arms position pointed at the ceiling. They saw it and beet a hasty screaming departure.
Got on the phone and called the PD told them quickly the whole story and repeated I never pointed it at them I wanted that reordered in case of problems. Two cars showed up one with a sergeant and a newbie young officer. Told all 3 cops what happened and you could then hear a car gunning its engine back of the school. They went back there and after doing some flashlight work arrested the kids for breaking in the school.
The sergeant and new cop came back to the house to get my info and the sergeant let the new kid do the interview. Asked me about the gun which I had unloaded, cylinder open on a table. The sergeant said dam thats a little model 60, listened to them kids I thought you had a Gatling gun or something huge
The kid went back to the interview and asked me do you always answer the door with a pistol in your hand and I replied no at 2AM if I had a shot gun handy I would have had that. The sergeant had a hard time keeping a straight face. He then told me you did nothing wrong gun wise you are not in any trouble. They never even asked me about a pistol permit, I assume the person that answered the phone checked that!
Yes I was nervous as this is NYS but the sergeant was right!
Wikipedia refers to him as having been a part time LEO in NH. Figures they’d get it wrong
I think he was only part time. He mentioned something like that in one of his Wilson Combat videos. Which IMO, doesn't make him any less of a cop.
He's one of the old school greats, that unfortunately like a lot of others, is on his way out.
IIRC, his police service was a mixture of full time and part time.
Most of us LEOs were full time coppers and part time (off duty) security officers, bouncers, carpenters, etc.
Mas found a better way to make a living.
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IIRC, his police service was a mixture of full time and part time.
Most of us LEOs were full time coppers and part time (off duty) security officers, bouncers, carpenters, etc.
Mas found a better way to make a living.
As stated in above comments I have attended his MAG-20 class and have followed, read and studied him since I was a teenager.
When speaking, and listed in his bio at the Masad Ayoob Group web page, it indicates his 47 years of LE experience was fully sworn but part time. And mostly at a command level.
He speaks about his upbringing during his classes. Fascinating and very talented man.
I read everything Massod Ayoob wrote in magazines and other published journals 30+ years ago. Still read his blogs and watch his youtubes today. The best firearms instructor I know of.
Exactly what it would sound like. You're talking about a sparsely populated state, with many small-towns, and 'vllages'. Many such places have enough budget to extend P/T positions on a paid-basis. Normally, such hours budgeted would be for special-events held in the community. Also, holidays (with a focus on responding to mischief and DUI) bring the need for additional coverage.
There are also many communities with 'reserve' officer programs. You patrol entirely on a volunteer basis, usually with a minium requirement of two-four shifts per month. Sometimes those can be split into 4-5hrs at a crack. Say...Friday and Sat eves from 11pm-3am. Again, think 'last-call', and the exodus from the pubs, bars, clubs and such. Many are re-imbursed for equipment, and may be 'paid' a dollar per year. This covers their medical care and legal assistance for line-of-duty issues. Some reserves are 'fully-sworn', and able to work alone, with full authority. Some must be attached with a full-timer as a partner/back-up. Policies as to the mininum level/s of training and operation differ.
I grew-up in S. Florida, which was then and is even moreso now, quite densely populated. Many departments had reserves. Retirees who want to keep their feet in the water, LOL. Or, career professionals of other sorts who have have a desire for serving in that capacity. My own former agency has many reserves. I live in Phoenix today, with a budget for about 3K officers. Woefully understaffed at around 2400 officers, they are appreciative of their reserve program. There was a rather well-known journalist here years back that was a reserve officer {is?} for a suburb town of Phoenix.
I would imagine that Ayoob's interest stemmed from the journalist approach he got started with. Then, actual interest in jumping into the water. When the business opportunity came knocking...well, who can blame the guy? I think he grabbed that by the reigns and rode it into what he has today.
Absolutely spot-ON dittoes, my amigo. First the phone is perceived as the 'victim/reporter', like it or not.
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dsf
Member
IIRC, his police service was a mixture of full time and part time.
Most of us LEOs were full time coppers and part time (off duty) security officers, bouncers, carpenters, etc.
Mas found a better way to make a living.
My brother recently "retired" from being what would be considered part time as a cop in southern NH - he still flies corporate jets, which definitely pays a bit more then being PD in a small town.
Not quite sure of exactly how it works, but there are alot of smaller towns in NH where part time types augment a modest full time PD force. Lots of traffic stops, DUI, etc level work.
I have been following Ayoob since some time in the 70s when I first ran across his magazine columns. From the outset it was obvious to me that he knew/knows his stuff.
My initial impressions then, which carry through to now, is that he is not afraid to create controversy when he encounters something that needs to be known. During that era there was an issue about the S&W model 66s seizing up when rapid firing hot .357 loads. The cause was due to expansion of the stainless steel closing up tolerances causing the revolvers to seize up. No such problem had been observed in the Model 19s. Believe all this was covered in the American Handgunner magazine. Ayoob took a lot of flack on that, including pressure to not write about the problem, but he stuck with it in the belief that this was a potential officer safety issue.
I respected that then, still do.
Conversely I have seen, on this forum but some years ago, individuals not just disagreeing with Ayoob but doing so to the point of personal condemnation. Since there was no supportive documentation to support the posters' assertions, these posts came across as attempts meant to denigrate Ayoob and in so doing elevate the expertise status of the critics.
The problem with that though is that when someone, anyone, writes something, that speaks of the writer. In other words, the messenger counts and readers do make those assessments.
I am glad to see that this discussion has not gone in that direction. I think Ayoob has earned that. For me personally, as a 30+ year career LEO, shooting competitor, range officer, trainer and teacher, I have the highest respect for him.
My initial impressions then, which carry through to now, is that he is not afraid to create controversy when he encounters something that needs to be known. During that era there was an issue about the S&W model 66s seizing up when rapid firing hot .357 loads. The cause was due to expansion of the stainless steel closing up tolerances causing the revolvers to seize up. No such problem had been observed in the Model 19s. Believe all this was covered in the American Handgunner magazine. Ayoob took a lot of flack on that, including pressure to not write about the problem, but he stuck with it in the belief that this was a potential officer safety issue.
I respected that then, still do.
Conversely I have seen, on this forum but some years ago, individuals not just disagreeing with Ayoob but doing so to the point of personal condemnation. Since there was no supportive documentation to support the posters' assertions, these posts came across as attempts meant to denigrate Ayoob and in so doing elevate the expertise status of the critics.
The problem with that though is that when someone, anyone, writes something, that speaks of the writer. In other words, the messenger counts and readers do make those assessments.
I am glad to see that this discussion has not gone in that direction. I think Ayoob has earned that. For me personally, as a 30+ year career LEO, shooting competitor, range officer, trainer and teacher, I have the highest respect for him.
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There are many great instructors out there. Why watch just one? 
Sadly many of the best are getting old.
In addition to Ayoob there’s Dave Spaulding, Clint Smith, Ken Hackathorn, Tom Givens, Rob Leatham, Rob Pincus, and many others.
Sadly many of the best are getting old.
In addition to Ayoob there’s Dave Spaulding, Clint Smith, Ken Hackathorn, Tom Givens, Rob Leatham, Rob Pincus, and many others.
There are many great instructors out there. Why watch just one?
Sadly many of the best are getting old.
In addition to Ayoob there’s Dave Spaulding, Clint Smith, Ken Hackathorn, Tom Givens, Rob Leatham, Rob Pincus, and many others.
Well, I agree with most of that list with Mas, Ken and Leatham at the top.
IMO you can scratch Pincus off of that list.
A very good friend of mine and his girlfriend, attended one of Pincus' classes about 5 or so years ago in Milford CT. Early on in the pistol defense class, a "student/participant" came up to Pincus during a break and asked him about his own pistol's durability. Pincus asked to see the student's weapon which was unloaded (dry range portion of the class) and the student complied.
Pincus threw the pistol downrange onto the asphalt range about 20 yds., scraping and nicking up his finish/sights etc. He then told the student with an attitude; he could see how durable his firearm was. The student who was kind of a "Casper Milk-toast" type just stood there in shock. Several others saw this, including my friend and demanded they were leaving and wanted their money back. The female assistant who checked the participants in at the beginning of the class, tried to smooth it over and explained to them that Mr. Pincus was just a little "intense" but that they don't do refunds after a class has started. A few participants wondered if Pincus was "on something" as his behavior was really strange the entire course. My buddy was pissed about the situation but didn't want to lose two admission fees he had paid for and stayed for the duration. He was unsure if the student ever reconciled with Pincus after the class, but my friend said he would never go back to a Pincus instruction class again. It was really weird and unprofessional behavior.
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"Do We Have a Better Spokesman for CC & SD Than Massad Ayoob?"
I told Mas one time that he has become the Jeff Cooper of "gun writers" which is the highest compliment I can give to a gun writer. Mr. Ayoob's articles are well-done, his speaking is the embodiment of expertise, and he has thought through almost every variation of most any problem, technique, or issue that could arise in nearly any kind of use of a firearm, from competition to defense, and his earlier articles even extend to hunting in Africa and other places. He is also well regarded as an expert witness for court proceedings. His early writings are excellent. I recall his part in the point-counterpoint on revolvers versus semi-autos for police use. The revolver side was presented, if I recall correctly, by none other than Bill Jordan. Anyone else remember the point-counterpoint with John Farnam called "How I Killed John Farnam" and "How I Killed Massad Ayoob" or titles to that effect? And, don't forget, he was a Second Chance "Save" back when Richard Davis published his catalog of his revolutionary vests and each and every save earned the lucky man (or woman) a photo and a paragraph describing how the vest saved the life of its wearer. In addition, he survived a helicopter crash back in the day. So, he has "been there, done that." I first met him at Bianchi in about 1982, or perhaps 1983, when he was carrying his 9mm P9S. He is "one of the good guys!" Brilliant!
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He was part time Cop in Grantham NH PD having 5-7 officers on it. I doubt there was a whole lot of serious crime there. I have listened to some of his speeches, read some of his books and actually talked to him a few times years ago. While I question where he got enough real life experience working in such a tiny PD in a tiny town and becoming what he has, the fact remains he has helped out a lot of "good guys" who were being railroaded into prison for nothing more than protecting themselves and their families.
I also suspect that his main source of income over the years has been gotten from books, articles in gun rags, endorsements, paid speeches, being an "expert" witness, and in general from being a self proclaimed expert on gun handling, self defense and the subject in general. He sure as hell did not get rich as a part time Cop.
Anyone who can become what he has with only the small town PD experience he has had, I take my hat off too - seriously!! I am NOT badmouthing Ayoob here and actually quite the opposite and yes I do agree that 90%+ of what comes out of his mouth makes sense, is prudent and truthful and it just goes to show what a human being can do when they set their mind to it - even without formal big town experience. Shows you his persistence on being taken seriously.
Yes, he has been an asset to gun owners and the 2nd Amd; he talks calmly and slowly, I have never seen him get unraveled, and has more common sense than many big city big shots who run rather large PD's. He is also (at least on this subject as I don't really know him personally) a resourceful and intelligent man and an asset to gun toters nationwide. Good on him!
He reminds me of a few hugely successful businessmen I know who had zero formal business training, never went to College, never had financial backing of their parents and yet have become mega wealthy all on their own. Again, just goes to show what determination, self esteem, confidence in one's self and persistence can do!
I also suspect that his main source of income over the years has been gotten from books, articles in gun rags, endorsements, paid speeches, being an "expert" witness, and in general from being a self proclaimed expert on gun handling, self defense and the subject in general. He sure as hell did not get rich as a part time Cop.
Anyone who can become what he has with only the small town PD experience he has had, I take my hat off too - seriously!! I am NOT badmouthing Ayoob here and actually quite the opposite and yes I do agree that 90%+ of what comes out of his mouth makes sense, is prudent and truthful and it just goes to show what a human being can do when they set their mind to it - even without formal big town experience. Shows you his persistence on being taken seriously.
Yes, he has been an asset to gun owners and the 2nd Amd; he talks calmly and slowly, I have never seen him get unraveled, and has more common sense than many big city big shots who run rather large PD's. He is also (at least on this subject as I don't really know him personally) a resourceful and intelligent man and an asset to gun toters nationwide. Good on him!
He reminds me of a few hugely successful businessmen I know who had zero formal business training, never went to College, never had financial backing of their parents and yet have become mega wealthy all on their own. Again, just goes to show what determination, self esteem, confidence in one's self and persistence can do!
I've heard that story before myself. Don't recall where?
I've always been a little weary of Pincus. He kind of just showed-up out of nowhere as a trainer and expert? But I haven't done enough research on him to know if he's legit & teaching sound doctrine.
I don't think most of the old-time guys get much respect from the younger crowd. If you don't have a beard, served in Iraq or A-stan, and aren't teaching the latest in red dotery, you're a dinosaur. I remember everyone losing their poop when Hackathorn did his Red Dot video's.
I'm pretty much open to all of it & am past the tribalism and non-sense of brand x vs. brand y. Trainer A vs. trainer B. Take what you can learn and move on.
These days as I've gotten older, I just like buying and shooting different guns. Don't care the make or model. Some work for me, so don't. Although shooting a 2011 with a red dot, sure makes me look like a good shooter.
IIRC, Mas's family owned a jewelry store at which he was a partner, This was his interest and start of defensive weapons involvement.
You might believe others or follow whomever you like best, but no one else has his court time.
You might believe others or follow whomever you like best, but no one else has his court time.
gwpercle
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I don't think the "Mainstream Media" likes any of us law abiding honest gun owners ... and is loathe to show anything we do or say in a positive and constructive light .
Massad Ayoob is probably one of the best speakers on the subject ...
The man's been around the block more than once and knows what he's talking about .
Gary
Massad Ayoob is probably one of the best speakers on the subject ...
The man's been around the block more than once and knows what he's talking about .
Gary
1953HenryJ
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Good to see Dave Spaulding get a mention. My mentor was a student of his and even assisted him in classes.
At one time I would have said James Yaeger but he's passed away
At one time I would have said James Yaeger but he's passed away
Matt_X
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A good question. I've seen a couple of videos of him teaching instructors and he demonstrated good explaination of his points and good teaching presentation. Best I could find on his background is that he started instructing at one of the big name places.
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Re: Mas Ayoob's small town experience.
Mas has stated that being on a smaller force gave him the opportunities to take training and attend professional conferences etc. He's not sure he could had have done that on a bigger force - at least not as early on in his career. Also NH has something called "police prosecutor." That began his experience in working with prosecutors and the courts. So does have a fair (maybe alot) of formal as well as on the job training in the subjects he tends to focus on.
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